Discussion:
Dutch TV on Landmark and CSA Europe
(too old to reply)
Mike Gormez
2007-02-20 13:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Dutch TV programma Zembla did a critcal episode on Landmark and CSA Europe. Broadcast
date 18 februari 2007
http://omroep.vara.nl/Nieuws_detail_Zembla.1536.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1154&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1303&cHash=335c775237

( short http://tinyurl.com/2ale7z )

It shows that both of these organizations know some participants have gone psychotic and
did little or nothing to help them. This is not the French program into Landmark redubbed
but their own production.

Stream
http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=4037658



--
Mike Gormez

- World Institute of Scientology Enterprises (WISE) - www.stop-wise.biz
- www.whyaretheydead.net - Why Are They Dead, Scientology?
- Child abuse and neglect by scientologists www.taxexemptchildabuse.net
- www.psychassualt.org - Scientology hatred of mental health (CCHR)
j***@yahoo.com
2007-02-20 15:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Gormez
Dutch TV programma Zembla did a critcal episode on Landmark and CSA Europe. Broadcast
date 18 februari 2007http://omroep.vara.nl/Nieuws_detail_Zembla.1536.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1154&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1303&cHash=335c775237
( shorthttp://tinyurl.com/2ale7z)
It shows that both of these organizations know some participants have gone psychotic and
did little or nothing to help them. This is not the French program into Landmark redubbed
but their own production.
Streamhttp://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=4037658
--
Mike Gormez
- World Institute of Scientology Enterprises (WISE) -www.stop-wise.biz
-www.whyaretheydead.net- Why Are They Dead, Scientology?
- Child abuse and neglect by scientologistswww.taxexemptchildabuse.net
-www.psychassualt.org- Scientology hatred of mental health (CCHR)
Perhaps someone will translate this into an English transcript and/or
subtitles ...
Caligari
2007-02-20 20:47:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by Mike Gormez
Dutch TV programma Zembla did a critcal episode on Landmark and CSA Europe. Broadcast
date 18 februari 2007http://omroep.vara.nl/Nieuws_detail_Zembla.1536.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1154&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1303&cHash=335c775237
( shorthttp://tinyurl.com/2ale7z)
It shows that both of these organizations know some participants have gone psychotic and
did little or nothing to help them. This is not the French program into Landmark redubbed
but their own production.
Streamhttp://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=4037658
--
Mike Gormez
- World Institute of Scientology Enterprises (WISE) -www.stop-wise.biz
-www.whyaretheydead.net-Why Are They Dead, Scientology?
- Child abuse and neglect by scientologistswww.taxexemptchildabuse.net
-www.psychassualt.org-Scientology hatred of mental health (CCHR)
Perhaps someone will translate this into an English transcript and/or
subtitles ...
Here is the translation of the show description,
http://omroep.vara.nl/Nieuws_detail_Zembla.1536.0.html?&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1154&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1303&cHash=335c775237
, using AltaVista Babelfish ( http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr
). It's rough, but can mostly be sorted out:

=============
ZEMBLA - crazily of luck - 18 February
Media at this Article
Bekijk here the retransmission

Bekijk left the retransmission.

With more and more success organisations know such as country mark and
CSA Europe new course participants to draw for their group trainings
in zoeken to happier live. Entirely inoffensive its these trainings
however not. Participants can touch in serious mental problems and
sometimes even arrive course participants in an acute psychosis.

For the delivery ` crazily of luck with ex-cursisten, spoke ZEMBLA a
former employee and psychiatrists concerning the dangers of these
trainings. Also psychologe went on behalf of ZEMBLA to a training of
country mark and followed researcher of the programme himself a cursus
of CSA.

ZEMBLA discovered that it occurs sometimes that participants become
during or after the cursus psychotic. Ex-cursist of Csa-training are
one of them: ` you think at a given moment that you a type god is. You
are simply total outside senses.

Psychiatrist P. Hanneman works at a crisis relief in Amsterdam and
tells that there three ex-cursisten of country mark with a psychosis
have communicated themselves, as well as ex-cursist with suicide
inclinations. According to him can withdraw itself nobody during about
a cursus to the group process. Hanneman: ` you are frequently
humiliated, is placed under pressure and at a given moment your own
ego disappears and becomes the one whole.

R. Bauhofer, director of country mark in the Netherlands, informs that
country mark is not of the fact that these psychoses occur. But from
several depositions and documents becomes clear that both country mark
and CSA are informed of this really and when appropriate little offers
to no support or readjustment.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
From these Zembla-aflevering become clear also that the cursussen are
an emotional and mental war of attrition. The participants are this
way manipulated that they cooperate enthusiastically in their `
opening and afterwards in an euphoric poll touch slowly but certainly.
Once them that is poll, they are encouraged for longer and more
expensive vervolgcursussen register itself. Moreover they are
encouraged family members and present friends for an introduction
evening.
=============
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-21 01:49:36 UTC
Permalink
i have a pain in my elbow--- said the frenchman rubbing his knee
Eldon
2007-02-21 11:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAPPYsamurai
i have a pain in my elbow--- said the frenchman rubbing his knee
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
---------
With more and more success, organizations with names like Landmark and
the new CSA Europe attract new course participants for their group
trainings with promises of living happier lives. However, these
trainings are not entirely innocent. Participants can experience
serious mental problems, and sometimes course participants even
develop
an acute psychosis.

For the broadcast "crazily of luck" with former students, ZEMBLA spoke
with a former employee and psychiatrists about the dangers of these
trainings. Also, a psychologist went on behalf of ZEMBLA to a training
of Landmark and personally researched the course program of CSA.

ZEMBLA discovered that sometimes it occurs, during or after the
course,
that participants become psychotic. A former student of CSA-training
is one of them: "you think at a certain moment that you a type of god.
You are simply entirely outside your senses."

Psychiatrist P. Hanneman works at a crisis relief center in Amsterdam
and says that three former students of Landmark with a psychosis have
committed themselves, as well as former students with suicidal
inclinations. According to him, nobody can withdraw himself from the
group process during a course.. Hanneman: "you are frequently
humiliated, placed under pressure and at a given moment your own ego
disappears and becomes part of the whole group mind."

R. Bauhofer, director of Landmark in the Netherlands, says that
Landmark is not aware that these psychoses occur. But from several
depositions and documents, it becomes clear that both Landmark and CSA
are actually aware of this and when it is needed, offer little or no
support or rehabilitation.
Post by HAPPYsamurai
From these Zembla inquiries, it becomes clear also that the courses
are an
emotional and mental war of attrition. The participants are thus
manipulated so that they slowly but surely cooperate enthusiastically
from the introduction and afterwards in an euphoric group experience.
Once in the group, they are encouraged to register themselves for
longer and more expensive advanced courses. Moreover they are
encouraged to bring family members and current friends for an
introductory evening.
e***@hotmail.com
2007-02-21 14:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"


E
Eldon
2007-02-21 15:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"
Could be. Or "Successful insanity" for that matter. The nuances are
hard to get, and I don't know any Dutch. I just sort of did the
obvious by rearranging words. However, if you want to see a real hoot
about grandiosity, check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/2s7jpn
Piltdown Man
2007-02-21 23:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eldon
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"
Could be. Or "Successful insanity" for that matter. The nuances are
hard to get, and I don't know any Dutch.
"Gek van geluk" is a play on words. Normally, it would be understood
metaphorically to mean something like "crazy with joy", "delirious with
happiness", or other words to that effect. But if you interpret it
literally, it can also mean something like "driven crazy by happiness".
j***@yahoo.com
2007-02-22 01:04:45 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 21, 6:48 pm, "Piltdown Man"
Post by Piltdown Man
Post by Eldon
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"
Could be. Or "Successful insanity" for that matter. The nuances are
hard to get, and I don't know any Dutch.
"Gek van geluk" is a play on words. Normally, it would be understood
metaphorically to mean something like "crazy with joy", "delirious with
happiness", or other words to that effect. But if you interpret it
literally, it can also mean something like "driven crazy by happiness".
Piltdown Man - would you be interested in providing an English
synopsis of the program, "Gek van geluk" ? Many people are
interested...
Boudewijn van Ingen
2007-02-22 04:44:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
On Feb 21, 6:48 pm, "Piltdown Man"
Post by Piltdown Man
Post by Eldon
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"
Could be. Or "Successful insanity" for that matter. The nuances are
hard to get, and I don't know any Dutch.
"Gek van geluk" is a play on words. Normally, it would be understood
metaphorically to mean something like "crazy with joy", "delirious with
happiness", or other words to that effect. But if you interpret it
literally, it can also mean something like "driven crazy by happiness".
Piltdown Man - would you be interested in providing an English
synopsis of the program, "Gek van geluk" ? Many people are
interested...
I'm not 'Piltdown Man', but I have done some such translations before.
I only hope nobody's waiting for a translation by me this time,
because I am rather busy right now. If nobody else does one, I might
do it later...


--
Groeten,
Boudewijn.
c***@gmail.com
2007-02-24 11:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Hello there,

If you would like to download a full file of the documentary in order
to translate to English, please email me on ***@gmail.com and
I will reply with a web location.

The video file is in its native .asf format and will play through
Windows Media Player or similar software.

John
c***@gmail.com
2007-02-24 11:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Ahem ... just to clarify the obfuscated email address ....

contact.caic at gmail.com

Hope that is better.

John
Piltdown Man
2007-02-23 03:53:45 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com wrote...

<snip>
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by Piltdown Man
"Gek van geluk" is a play on words. Normally, it would be understood
metaphorically to mean something like "crazy with joy", "delirious with
happiness", or other words to that effect. But if you interpret it
literally, it can also mean something like "driven crazy by happiness".
Piltdown Man - would you be interested in providing an English
synopsis of the program, "Gek van geluk" ? Many people are
interested...
I haven't seen the program when it was broadcast, and I can't watch it
online either. I've only read the synopsis provided by the program makers
themselves on their website (which started this thread). And the reworked
version posted by Eldon of the Babelfish "translation", while perhaps not
very elegant, reasonably accurately reflects what the original says.
Eldon
2007-02-22 08:21:25 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 22, 12:48 am, "Piltdown Man"
Post by Piltdown Man
Post by Eldon
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"
Could be. Or "Successful insanity" for that matter. The nuances are
hard to get, and I don't know any Dutch.
"Gek van geluk" is a play on words. Normally, it would be understood
metaphorically to mean something like "crazy with joy", "delirious with
happiness", or other words to that effect. But if you interpret it
literally, it can also mean something like "driven crazy by happiness".
Thanks for the idiom, P.M. It looks like the show was pretty similar
to the French broadcast that caused Landmark to skedaddle out of
France, Switzerland and Belgium. Other than the public's shock at the
verbal abuse, the official reason in France was their use of
"volunteer" laborers working off the books for a commercial
enterprise.

The "empty seats" metaphor with the soundtrack of a training was an
interesting device. ;-)
Tex
2007-02-22 14:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eldon
On Feb 22, 12:48 am, "Piltdown Man"
Post by Piltdown Man
Post by Eldon
Post by e***@hotmail.com
Post by Eldon
Babelfish is really lousy for both Dutch- and German-to-English
because of the syntax. Here is a mildly edited version I did that is
probably closer. Still clunky, and I'm not sure about the "crazily of
luck" idiom. Possibly the name of the show? Which would maybe be
"Insanely good fortune" in English? Not sure.
Maybe "Delusions of Good Fortune (Grandeur)?"
Could be. Or "Successful insanity" for that matter. The nuances are
hard to get, and I don't know any Dutch.
"Gek van geluk" is a play on words. Normally, it would be understood
metaphorically to mean something like "crazy with joy", "delirious with
happiness", or other words to that effect. But if you interpret it
literally, it can also mean something like "driven crazy by happiness".
Thanks for the idiom, P.M. It looks like the show was pretty similar
to the French broadcast that caused Landmark to skedaddle out of
France, Switzerland and Belgium. Other than the public's shock at the
verbal abuse, the official reason in France was their use of
l
Public shock?
Come on Eldon. I've been to France. They are not the most polite people, by
any means. I don't think the "public" was shocked.
Have you taken a poll?
Post by Eldon
"volunteer" laborers working off the books for a commercial
enterprise.
The "empty seats" metaphor with the soundtrack of a training was an
interesting device. ;-)
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-22 20:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tex
Public shock?
Come on Eldon. I've been to France. They are not the most polite people, by
any means. I don't think the "public" was shocked.
Have you taken a poll?
probably shocked at having to PAY for it
Tex
2007-02-23 03:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAPPYsamurai
Post by Tex
Public shock?
Come on Eldon. I've been to France. They are not the most polite people, by
any means. I don't think the "public" was shocked.
Have you taken a poll?
probably shocked at having to PAY for it
I noticed that insulting behavior was free in Paris.
Piltdown Man
2007-02-23 03:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Tex <***@yahoo.com> wrote...

<snip>
Post by Tex
Come on Eldon. I've been to France. They are not the most polite people, by
any means.
Let me guess. You're an American who once went on a trip to Paris, and your
opinion about "the French" is based on the attitude of waiters in Paris
restaurants that mostly cater to tourists, and perhaps other people in
similar menial, underpaid jobs. Generally, as a tourist one doesn't
encounter many other locals.

For what it's worth, there is a very general stereotype in the rest of
France that people from Paris are impolite, impatient, boorish, pushy, what
have you. Just like there is a stereotype in the United States that people
from New York are like that. Or in England that people from London are like
that. Or in Germany that people from Berlin are like that. It seems to come
with being the metropolis.
Tex
2007-02-23 05:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Piltdown Man
<snip>
Post by Tex
Come on Eldon. I've been to France. They are not the most polite people,
by
Post by Tex
any means.
Let me guess. You're an American who once went on a trip to Paris, and your
opinion about "the French" is based on the attitude of waiters in Paris
restaurants that mostly cater to tourists, and perhaps other people in
similar menial, underpaid jobs. Generally, as a tourist one doesn't
encounter many other locals.
Guess again.
I was working at IBM in Evry, just outside Paris.
Maybe it was the people at IBM.
They were all paid quite well in fact, and well-educated.
The waiters and hotel staff treated me very well.
An American attempting to speak French is rare. It shows respect for the
language and culture. People appreciated that.
The European district manager from my company was a bit of an asshole. But I
shouldn't let that reflect on all people in Paris. But much like New
Yorkers, they weren't afraid to tell you what was on their mind.
Post by Piltdown Man
For what it's worth, there is a very general stereotype in the rest of
France that people from Paris are impolite, impatient, boorish, pushy, what
have you. Just like there is a stereotype in the United States that people
from New York are like that. Or in England that people from London are like
that. Or in Germany that people from Berlin are like that. It seems to come
with being the metropolis.
Eldon
2007-02-23 09:23:38 UTC
Permalink
On Feb 23, 4:53 am, "Piltdown Man"
Post by Piltdown Man
<snip>
Post by Tex
Come on Eldon. I've been to France. They are not the most polite people,
by
Post by Tex
any means.
Let me guess. You're an American who once went on a trip to Paris, and your
opinion about "the French" is based on the attitude of waiters in Paris
restaurants that mostly cater to tourists, and perhaps other people in
similar menial, underpaid jobs. Generally, as a tourist one doesn't
encounter many other locals.
You are right about large cities in general. In France, there's also a
lot of requisite formality. They get quite bugged by tourists who
don't have a sense of how things work. There are many shops where you
it's an unwritten rule and you cannot touch the merchandise. Even at
produce markets, if they have a pyramidal stack of apples, it means
you as for one and the guy will choose one for you.

Before you ask a question, you also have to say "Excusez-moi de vous
deranger..." Meaning "Pardon me for bothering you...."

There is a funny scene in some movie where a guy is being chased down
the street by an attacker. He jumps into a phone booth, frantically
dials the police and begins the conversation with that line.
Post by Piltdown Man
For what it's worth, there is a very general stereotype in the rest of
France that people from Paris are impolite, impatient, boorish, pushy, what
have you. Just like there is a stereotype in the United States that people
from New York are like that. Or in England that people from London are like
that. Or in Germany that people from Berlin are like that. It seems to come
with being the metropolis.
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-24 03:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Piltdown Man
For what it's worth, there is a very general stereotype in the rest of
France that people from Paris are impolite, impatient, boorish, pushy, what
have you. Just like there is a stereotype in the United States that people
from New York are like that. Or in England that people from London are like
that. Or in Germany that people from Berlin are like that. It seems to come
with being the metropolis.
a city is like an old whore ... thinking only of its own glory

forget where i read that one but i think its an old one
Tex
2007-02-24 06:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAPPYsamurai
Post by Piltdown Man
For what it's worth, there is a very general stereotype in the rest of
France that people from Paris are impolite, impatient, boorish, pushy, what
have you. Just like there is a stereotype in the United States that people
from New York are like that. Or in England that people from London are like
that. Or in Germany that people from Berlin are like that. It seems to come
with being the metropolis.
a city is like an old whore ... thinking only of its own glory
There is glory in being a whore?
Okie dokie.
Post by HAPPYsamurai
forget where i read that one but i think its an old one
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-24 12:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAPPYsamurai
a city is like an old whore ... thinking only of its own glory
substitute glory for financial gain then

as i say its an "old" saying -- courtesanship

the eye of the beholder etc

its a bit like saying Darren only considered his own glory even tho u
might find his actions unglorious -- he probably considered it heroic

its a warning to beware others who seek their own glorification [by
their own standards not yours] ruthlessly
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-24 12:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Very often, courtesans would betray one another in acts of political
intrigue in attempts to climb into higher positions of power within
royal courts. There are many cases throughout history where one
courtesan would attempt (sometimes successfully) to supplant the
mistress to a king or emperor. This was typically preceded by her
discrediting the ruler's companion, often by divulging secrets that
could lead to her rival being cast aside and replaced by her. However,
this was a delicate process, and if a courtesan of lower status
attempted to replace a courtesan who wielded a substantial amount of
power within the court, it would often result in the lower courtesan
being exiled from the royal court, or married off to a lesser noble in
an arranged marriage, or even at times eliminated altogether. There
are also many examples of courtesans who took advantage of their
involvement with powerful individuals, which usually ended in their
downfall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesan

compare also the rivalry between european CITYs at the time
Tex
2007-02-24 12:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAPPYsamurai
Post by HAPPYsamurai
an old whore ... thinking only of its own glory
Very often, courtesans would betray one another in acts of political
intrigue in attempts to climb into higher positions of power within
royal courts. There are many cases throughout history where one
courtesan would attempt (sometimes successfully) to supplant the
mistress to a king or emperor. This was typically preceded by her
discrediting the ruler's companion, often by divulging secrets that
could lead to her rival being cast aside and replaced by her. However,
this was a delicate process, and if a courtesan of lower status
attempted to replace a courtesan who wielded a substantial amount of
power within the court, it would often result in the lower courtesan
being exiled from the royal court, or married off to a lesser noble in
an arranged marriage, or even at times eliminated altogether. There
are also many examples of courtesans who took advantage of their
involvement with powerful individuals, which usually ended in their
downfall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesan
compare also the rivalry between european CITYs at the time
Got it.
Thanks for the clarification.
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-24 20:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tex
Got it.
Thanks for the clarification.
an there i was worrying you'd be offended
Tex
2007-02-25 02:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by HAPPYsamurai
Post by Tex
Got it.
Thanks for the clarification.
an there i was worrying you'd be offended
Glad to see your unfounded fears did not limit your self expression. :)
patrick darcy
2007-02-25 03:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tex
Post by HAPPYsamurai
Post by Tex
Got it.
Thanks for the clarification.
an there i was worrying you'd be offended
Glad to see your unfounded fears did not limit your self expression. :)
if tex were to bat his eyelashes he would sound just like kmottus.
HAPPYsamurai
2007-02-25 13:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tex
Glad to see your unfounded fears did not limit your self expression. :)
your're just missing Dunkirk

Serena Nordstrup
2007-02-25 07:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tex
Post by HAPPYsamurai
Post by Piltdown Man
For what it's worth, there is a very general stereotype in the rest of
France that people from Paris are impolite, impatient, boorish, pushy, what
have you. Just like there is a stereotype in the United States that people
from New York are like that. Or in England that people from London are like
that. Or in Germany that people from Berlin are like that. It seems to come
with being the metropolis.
a city is like an old whore ... thinking only of its own glory
There is glory in being a whore?
If you don't smuggle ~being~ into the ~conversation~, the issue may
disappear in the process of ~life~ itself.
Post by Tex
Okie dokie.
Post by HAPPYsamurai
forget where i read that one but i think its an old one
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...