Discussion:
Will anti-Scientology lead to a new holocaust?
(too old to reply)
Steve Dufour
2005-12-20 11:59:01 UTC
Permalink
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.

http://tinyurl.com/7chfa

If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-20 12:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
m***@usa.net
2005-12-20 12:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
Marcia Clark, the personification of prosecutoral misconduct, is/was a
scientologist - that should speak for itself.

O.J. was innocent, O.J. was framed, but Marcia never searched for
another killer, never gave up on winning one more case for her
career...
Steve Dufour
2005-12-21 06:51:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@usa.net
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
Marcia Clark, the personification of prosecutoral misconduct, is/was a
scientologist - that should speak for itself.
O.J. was innocent, O.J. was framed, but Marcia never searched for
another killer, never gave up on winning one more case for her
career...
uh...ok...BTW the discussion is going fairly well. You have to
register with Beliefnet to take part.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-22 01:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by m***@usa.net
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
Marcia Clark, the personification of prosecutoral misconduct, is/was a
scientologist - that should speak for itself.
O.J. was innocent, O.J. was framed, but Marcia never searched for
another killer, never gave up on winning one more case for her
career...
uh...ok...BTW the discussion is going fairly well. You have to
register with Beliefnet to take part.
Here's a part:


I think the key datum in whether or not one group is at risk of hate
crimes or not has a lot to do with how they handle the subject of
granting of beingness themselves.

It seems to me that people react at a very basic level to the non
granting of beingness practiced by any group.

"you don't and can't belong here" is sure to get the old dander up.

"we don't grant you the right of existence" is way worse.

the enmity between some arab and jewish groups is a good example.
little visible granting of beingness between the confrontational
factions.

the racial hatreds where ever they are present certainly stem to some
degree from one or the other group saying the other is no good, is
inferior, can't mix with their's, should not exist at all, etc.

So then you would think that the Church becomes a prime candidate for
an eventual backlash since they are completely callous in applying
their defacto policies on who can belong, and who is ok, and who must
be destroyed,etc.

I say defacto, because it's obvious that lots of policy evidenced by
their activities does not agree with original policy as written by LRH,
no matter what our obsessive little Local LRH hater says.
mad_kow
2005-12-28 15:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Steve Dufour wrote:

<slurpity>
Post by Steve Dufour
"you don't and can't belong here" is sure to get the old dander up.
"we don't grant you the right of existence" is way worse.
Ya know the really cool part about not being a scientologist? I exist
without anyone granting me the right to do so. That is the difference
between Actual Reality and Subjective Reality :)

Mad Kow (oh look, I'm still here. what's up with that)
Steve Dufour
2005-12-28 21:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad_kow
Ya know the really cool part about not being a scientologist? I exist
without anyone granting me the right to do so. That is the difference
between Actual Reality and Subjective Reality :)
Mad Kow (oh look, I'm still here. what's up with that)
That is cool.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-29 16:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by mad_kow
<slurpity>
Post by Steve Dufour
"you don't and can't belong here" is sure to get the old dander up.
"we don't grant you the right of existence" is way worse.
Ya know the really cool part about not being a scientologist? I exist
without anyone granting me the right to do so. That is the difference
between Actual Reality and Subjective Reality :)
Mad Kow (oh look, I'm still here. what's up with that)
Thanks again Mad Kow. That is one thing I like about the
anti-Scientology ng. Even when I say things that the people there do
not agree with they still respect me as a fellow human being.
Big Questions
2005-12-23 15:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
I notice you blame the "mainstream media". Why have they not reported
Bush using Scientology tech in Iraq to brainwash the "terrorists'?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-23 16:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Big Questions
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
I notice you blame the "mainstream media". Why have they not reported
Bush using Scientology tech in Iraq to brainwash the "terrorists'?
Maybe the media are Scientologists too. :-)
JP
2005-12-23 21:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Big Questions
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
I notice you blame the "mainstream media". Why have they not reported
Bush using Scientology tech in Iraq to brainwash the "terrorists'?
Maybe the media are Scientologists too. :-)
We certainly know that a lot of them are Unification Church members.

Ie Washington Times and UPI.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-23 23:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JP
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Big Questions
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
I notice you blame the "mainstream media". Why have they not reported
Bush using Scientology tech in Iraq to brainwash the "terrorists'?
Maybe the media are Scientologists too. :-)
We certainly know that a lot of them are Unification Church members.
Ie Washington Times and UPI.
Thanks for pointing that out. :-)
sprouts
2005-12-20 15:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N
Steve Dufour
2005-12-20 17:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by sprouts
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
P-R-O-J-E-C-T-I-O-N
I hope not. :-)
Jens Tingleff
2005-12-21 07:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
Blah. Another censored forum, what a bore.

What do you think of the stated goal of the criminal organisation known as
the "church" <spit> of $cientology to "eliminate quickly and without
sorrow" those who do not respond well to the nonsense of $cientology?

http://www.suppressiveperson.org/fair_game/sos-dispose.html

Best Regards

Jens

- --
Key ID 0x09723C12, ***@tingleff.org
Analogue filtering / 5GHz RLAN / Mdk Linux / odds and ends
http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/ +44 1223 211 585
"Flogging will continue until the mood of the crew improves" 'Blue Ice'
Steve Dufour
2005-12-21 08:50:46 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
Blah. Another censored forum, what a bore.
What do you think of the stated goal of the criminal organisation known as
the "church" <spit> of $cientology to "eliminate quickly and without
sorrow" those who do not respond well to the nonsense of $cientology?
I would be against that too.
http://www.suppressiveperson.org/fair_game/sos-dispose.html
Best Regards
Thanks. You too.
Jens
- --
Analogue filtering / 5GHz RLAN / Mdk Linux / odds and ends
http://www.tingleff.org/jensting/ +44 1223 211 585
"Flogging will continue until the mood of the crew improves" 'Blue Ice'
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFDqQrcimJs3AlyPBIRAhHHAKDS1knYmjKPB7eCedKwXN62EX7NgQCg1Pqc
N8ErWD2czsep9GA1lsx5gpU=
=Rqh2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Zinj
2005-12-21 08:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
Blah. Another censored forum, what a bore.
What do you think of the stated goal of the criminal organisation known as
the "church" <spit> of $cientology to "eliminate quickly and without
sorrow" those who do not respond well to the nonsense of $cientology?
I would be against that too.
'Come the Clear Planet', they won't ask you first.

Zinj
--
Villains! I say to you now! Knock off all that Evil!
- The Tick
Steve Dufour
2005-12-21 16:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zinj
'Come the Clear Planet', they won't ask you first.
I hope they ask you Zinj. Have a great Christmas! :-)
Steve Dufour
2005-12-21 10:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jens Tingleff
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
Blah. Another censored forum, what a bore.
The only thing they would censor in this discussion would be: "Yes, and
it would be a good thing."
Muldoon
2005-12-23 16:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
Will those who laugh at Rev. Moon create an atmosphere of mass insanity
across the universe?
I am being defamed here
2005-12-24 00:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
I just started a discussion topic on this at Beliefnet.com.
http://tinyurl.com/7chfa
If you like you can go there to express your opinion one way or the
other.
The hatred against Scientology could end in another Holocaust. Right
now it is politically incorrect to gas people for their belief but we
all know that history repeats itself. But remember, Germany and other
countries have psychiatric institutions and the defamation against the
state of mind of Scientologists can result in that they are being
committed and that the psychiatric institutions become their
concentration camps.

Germany is most fanatically after Scientology, the country who was most
fanatically against the Jews but also other minorities.

If that hatred would not exist, the U.S. Department of State would not
list German crimes against Scientologists EACH year in their civil
rights report. And too bad that many of these German crimes never made
it in the report.


Barbara Schwarz
--
http://www.thunderstar.net/~Schwarz/
(About Dave Touretzky)

Other interesting websites:
http://www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/extremists/
http://www.alarmgermany.org/
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/sitemap.htm
http://www.cchr.org
http://www.MindFreedom.ORG/
http://www.datafilter.com/mc
http://www.freespeechstore.com
http://www.amatterofjustice.org/amoj/00index.cfm
plethora
2005-12-24 00:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by I am being defamed here
The hatred against Scientology could end in another Holocaust. Right
now it is politically incorrect to gas people BLAH, BLAH, BLAH (kookrant snipped).
Babbles is not only a blithering idiot but a mindless lunatic.

"From a Declaration dated October 8, 1997 . . . it appears that
Plaintiff [Schwarz] contends that President Eisenhower was the father
of L. Ron Hubbard, that Plaintiff is Hubbard's daughter Sarah and was
born in Salt Lake City, Utah in August, 1955, that she was kidnaped
three times between 1955 and 1960 and taken to Germany where she was
renamed Barbara or Barbel Bretschneider and raised by a German citizen
named Rosemarie Bretschneider. She claims that in the early 1970's her
father 'got hold of' her and they lived together in the United Kingdom.
She married Mark Rathbun but they were 'ambushed by the Germans in
Europe.' The Germans aborted her child and 'mind controlled us with
hypnosis and laser proceedings were done to our memory banks of our
brains, with the result that we forgot our past.' Their memories
returned when she '[ran] into Mark or Marty again in 1984.'"
I am being defamed here
2005-12-24 01:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by I am being defamed here
The hatred against Scientology could end in another Holocaust. Right
now it is politically incorrect to gas people BLAH, BLAH, BLAH (kookrant snipped).
I think that if Rick Ross and Jeff Jacobsen would not have
"deprogrammed" this woman, Deborah Malone, she would be still alive.

Barbara Schwarz

www.religiousfreedomwatch.org
The death of Deborah L. Malone
Jacobsen associate & Ross client commits suicide
"Debbie has progressed greatly over these past few years. She has
become stronger and continued to be involved in a counseling program.""
-- Rick Ross, Debbie's "Counselor" --


Coroner's Report on
the Death of
Deborah L. Malone

The truth is Debbie is dead. On January 28, 2002, Deborah L. Malone
(formerly Christensen) - a friend and associate of Jeff Jacobsen and a
former client of Rick Ross - took a deliberate overdose of
anti-depressants and narcotic painkillers, and died seated in her car
at a lakeshore. She left a suicide note in her vehicle. The only
explanation the medical examiner could find for her suicide was her
complaint of depression. Debbie was 35 years-old.

Jeff Jacobsen was a member of a so-called anti-cult group that
Christensen founded in Arizona in the late 1980's, several years
after she ended her involvement in her parent's religion. During this
period, Jacobsen hooked up with convicted jewel thief Rick Ross and
became involved in Ross's newest profiteering enterprise, "exit
counseling" - a euphemism used by deprogrammers to legitimize the days
and sometimes weeks of mental and physical abuse that they force on
individuals in an effort to force them to give up their faith.

[ Page 1 ] [ Page 2 ] [ Jeff Jacobsen ] [ Rick Ross ]
Simkatu
2005-12-24 06:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by I am being defamed here
During this
period, Jacobsen hooked up with convicted jewel thief Rick Ross and
became involved in Ross's newest profiteering enterprise, "exit
counseling" - a euphemism used by deprogrammers to legitimize the days
and sometimes weeks of mental and physical abuse that they force on
individuals in an effort to force them to give up their faith.
Their faith?

I have heard many Scientology spokespersons say that their religion
does not depend on any faith.

So how can someone take away their faith in Scientology if Scientology
requires no faith at all.

It seems a little contradictory to say one one hand that no faith is
required and then to later say that one has lost faith.

I'm beginning to think that lying is the only sacrament in this
supposed Church <spit>.
K***@msn.com
2005-12-28 05:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by I am being defamed here
I think that if Rick Ross and Jeff Jacobsen would not have
"deprogrammed" this woman, Deborah Malone, she would be still alive.
Barbara Schwarz
www.religiousfreedomwatch.org
The death of Deborah L. Malone
Jacobsen associate & Ross client commits suicide
"Debbie has progressed greatly over these past few years. She has
become stronger and continued to be involved in a counseling program.""
-- Rick Ross, Debbie's "Counselor" --
Coroner's Report on
the Death of
Deborah L. Malone
The truth is Debbie is dead. On January 28, 2002, Deborah L. Malone
(formerly Christensen) - a friend and associate of Jeff Jacobsen and a
former client of Rick Ross - took a deliberate overdose of
anti-depressants and narcotic painkillers, and died seated in her car
at a lakeshore. She left a suicide note in her vehicle. The only
explanation the medical examiner could find for her suicide was her
complaint of depression. Debbie was 35 years-old.
Jeff Jacobsen was a member of a so-called anti-cult group that
Christensen founded in Arizona in the late 1980's, several years
after she ended her involvement in her parent's religion. During this
period, Jacobsen hooked up with convicted jewel thief Rick Ross and
became involved in Ross's newest profiteering enterprise, "exit
counseling" - a euphemism used by deprogrammers to legitimize the days
and sometimes weeks of mental and physical abuse that they force on
individuals in an effort to force them to give up their faith.
Deborah Malone was no doubt mentally ill. Ross didn't have anything
whatsoever to do with her death. Now on the other hand, the same can't
be said about Scientology with regards to Lisa McPherson. Does that
name ring a bell, Babs? I think that if Scientology had left Lisa
alone, then she would probably still be alive. Also, what about Noah A.
Lottick?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 06:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by I am being defamed here
The hatred against Scientology could end in another Holocaust. Right
now it is politically incorrect to gas people BLAH, BLAH, BLAH (kookrant snipped).
Thanks for clearing that up for us.
r***@rickross.com
2005-12-24 11:47:24 UTC
Permalink
To whom it may concern:

Are response to the attacks posted on Web sites by groups often called
"cults," such as "Relgious Freedom Watch" run by Scientology can be
seen through the following links.

See http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien47.html

And there is this page where may of the sites are recognized through
"Flaming Websites" awards.

See http://www.rickross.com/flamingwebsites.html

Rick A. Ross
www.rickross.com
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 14:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@rickross.com
Are response to the attacks posted on Web sites by groups often called
"cults," such as "Relgious Freedom Watch" run by Scientology can be
seen through the following links.
See http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien47.html
And there is this page where may of the sites are recognized through
"Flaming Websites" awards.
See http://www.rickross.com/flamingwebsites.html
Rick A. Ross
www.rickross.com
Hi Rick. I was not trying to imply that you are a holocaust advocate.
And I do not think you are. Wishing you a good Christmas.
Roger
2005-12-24 14:54:52 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by r***@rickross.com
www.rickross.com
Hi Rick. I was not trying to imply that you are a holocaust advocate.
Ummm -- "Holocaust advocate?"
Post by Steve Dufour
And I do not think you are. Wishing you a good Christmas.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 15:12:47 UTC
Permalink
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by r***@rickross.com
www.rickross.com
Hi Rick. I was not trying to imply that you are a holocaust advocate.
Ummm -- "Holocaust advocate?"
Post by Steve Dufour
And I do not think you are. Wishing you a good Christmas.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Rick seems to be saying that the Holocaust was the result of too much
freedom. He has a right to his opinion of course.
Zinj
2005-12-24 15:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by r***@rickross.com
www.rickross.com
Hi Rick. I was not trying to imply that you are a holocaust advocate.
Ummm -- "Holocaust advocate?"
Post by Steve Dufour
And I do not think you are. Wishing you a good Christmas.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Rick seems to be saying that the Holocaust was the result of too much
freedom. He has a right to his opinion of course.
Steve seems to be saying that, as a moonie, posting as a Scientology
employee, he should be able to say any damn thing he wants, whether it
makes sense or not.

Zinj
--
If you don't understand Scientology, it looks like mental illness.
Once you *do* understand Scientology, it looks like deliberate mental
illness
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 16:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zinj
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=478402
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by r***@rickross.com
www.rickross.com
Hi Rick. I was not trying to imply that you are a holocaust advocate.
Ummm -- "Holocaust advocate?"
Post by Steve Dufour
And I do not think you are. Wishing you a good Christmas.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Rick seems to be saying that the Holocaust was the result of too much
freedom. He has a right to his opinion of course.
Steve seems to be saying that, as a moonie, posting as a Scientology
employee, he should be able to say any damn thing he wants, whether it
makes sense or not.
Thanks Zinj.
Zinj
2005-12-24 16:44:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
***@yahoo.com says...

<snip>
Post by Steve Dufour
Thanks Zinj.
Merry Christmas and a happy (if unsuccessful) New Year Steve :)

It's the end of the world as we know it

Zinj
--
If you don't understand Scientology, it looks like mental illness.
Once you *do* understand Scientology, it looks like deliberate mental
illness
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 16:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zinj
Post by Steve Dufour
Thanks Zinj.
Merry Christmas and a happy (if unsuccessful) New Year Steve :)
It's the end of the world as we know it
Every day is that. :-)
Zinj
2005-12-24 16:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Zinj
Post by Steve Dufour
Thanks Zinj.
Merry Christmas and a happy (if unsuccessful) New Year Steve :)
It's the end of the world as we know it
Every day is that. :-)
Every day's yesterday contains the seed and tomorrow the harvest of
today.

'Nip it in the bud' contains valuable wisdom :)

Zinj
--
If you don't understand Scientology, it looks like mental illness.
Once you *do* understand Scientology, it looks like deliberate mental
illness
Roger
2005-12-24 16:18:04 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by r***@rickross.com
www.rickross.com
Hi Rick. I was not trying to imply that you are a holocaust advocate.
Ummm -- "Holocaust advocate?"
Post by Steve Dufour
And I do not think you are. Wishing you a good Christmas.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Rick seems to be saying that the Holocaust was the result of too much
freedom. He has a right to his opinion of course.
If I may quote from my citation, which is actually relevant:

<quote>

The Holocaust was not the product of German culture, but the result of
a reign of terror brought about by the most heinous cult in human
history.

</quote>

In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 16:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Rick seems to be saying that the Holocaust was the result of too much
freedom. He has a right to his opinion of course.
<quote>
The Holocaust was not the product of German culture, but the result of
a reign of terror brought about by the most heinous cult in human
history.
</quote>
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
Here are the last three paragraphs of Rick's essay:

According to Goldhagen Germany today is a "remade country." Germans
learned bitter lessons from the Nazi era. It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence. However, the primary source for hate literature today
in Germany is the United States. In 1995 Gary Rex Lauk, of Lincoln,
Nebraska, was arrested in Denmark and extradited by the German
government. Once one of the biggest distributors of neo-Nazi propaganda
in both the United States and Europe, Lauk was the single largest
source in Germany. However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech.

Americans are only just beginning to face the problems posed by radical
groups and cults. Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny. Equal accountability, and enforcement would be a meaningful
step in dealing with such groups. Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public. Education about
propaganda, coercive persuasion and undue influence should be offered
at school, along with courses to develop or improve critical thinking
skills.

Hitler changed people into "willing executioners." The Holocaust was
not the product of German culture, but the result of a reign of terror
brought about by the most heinous cult in human history. That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions.
Roger
2005-12-24 17:03:42 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Rick seems to be saying that the Holocaust was the result of too much
freedom. He has a right to his opinion of course.
<quote>
The Holocaust was not the product of German culture, but the result of
a reign of terror brought about by the most heinous cult in human
history.
</quote>
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
According to Goldhagen Germany today is a "remade country." Germans
learned bitter lessons from the Nazi era. It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence. However, the primary source for hate literature today
in Germany is the United States. In 1995 Gary Rex Lauk, of Lincoln,
Nebraska, was arrested in Denmark and extradited by the German
government. Once one of the biggest distributors of neo-Nazi propaganda
in both the United States and Europe, Lauk was the single largest
source in Germany. However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech.
Americans are only just beginning to face the problems posed by radical
groups and cults. Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny. Equal accountability, and enforcement would be a meaningful
step in dealing with such groups. Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public. Education about
propaganda, coercive persuasion and undue influence should be offered
at school, along with courses to develop or improve critical thinking
skills.
Hitler changed people into "willing executioners." The Holocaust was
not the product of German culture, but the result of a reign of terror
brought about by the most heinous cult in human history. That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions.
Here -- try to read the question for comprehension this time:

In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 18:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."

"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."

"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."

"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."

"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers

of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "

I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
Roger
2005-12-24 18:38:48 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.

No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 18:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.
No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
It seems to me that he is saying that if Germany back in the 1920's and
30's had had anti-hate laws the rise of Nazism might have been
prevented. He may very well be right. I could also be
misunderstanding the point of his essay. If so please explain how you
understand it. Is he calling for stronger laws against hate propaganda
and guns? Wouldn't this be a restriction on freedom? I'm not saying
that would be a bad thing.
Roger
2005-12-24 19:06:48 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.
No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
It seems to me that he is saying that if Germany back in the 1920's and
30's had had anti-hate laws the rise of Nazism might have been
prevented.
If they hadn't had anti-Jewish laws, the Holocaust wouldn't not have
happened.

How do these laws constitute "too much freedom?"?

Or is it only the freedom to target specific groups that you champion?
Post by Steve Dufour
He may very well be right. I could also be
misunderstanding the point of his essay.
I would say that is obvious.
Post by Steve Dufour
If so please explain how you
understand it. Is he calling for stronger laws against hate propaganda
and guns? Wouldn't this be a restriction on freedom? I'm not saying
that would be a bad thing.
Where do you get "guns" from anything in that essay? Nothing of the
sort is even mentioned in passing.

Here's an idea: read the essay for comprehension, and get back to us.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 19:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Where do you get "guns" from anything in that essay? Nothing of the
sort is even mentioned in passing.
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."

"An astonishing number of Americans are now influenced by conspiracy
theories. A recent poll reported that 34% of American white males
believe citizens have the right to buy and stockpile large amounts of
weapons to oppose the Federal Government."

"Militia groups can rely upon sympathetic ears in Congress like
Representatives Steven Stockman of Texas and Helen Chenowith of Idaho.
Larry Pratt of "Gun Owners of America," who has been linked to militias
and white supremacists, held a high-ranking position in the Buchanan
campaign. Pratt has friends on the NRA board, ties to House majority
leader Richard Armey and has made contributions to Oliver North and
Stockman's campaigns, "Operation Rescue's" Randall Terry's defense
fund, " and Kirk Lyons CAUSE (now defunct). Lyons, a lawyer, once
defended white racists, has ties to the "Aryan Nations" and helped to
start the "Waco Justice Foundation.""
Roger
2005-12-24 20:42:50 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Where do you get "guns" from anything in that essay? Nothing of the
sort is even mentioned in passing.
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people."
"These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
So, he is not talking about the need for stronger gun laws, he is
talking about the use of that issue to "mask an attempt to strip power
from the only institution able to hold such groups accountable."

So why did you try to lie about that?

Is there a particular reason you snip the rest of the exchange without
so indicating?

Here it is for you to run from again:

<restore>
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.
No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
It seems to me that he is saying that if Germany back in the 1920's and
30's had had anti-hate laws the rise of Nazism might have been
prevented.
If they hadn't had anti-Jewish laws, the Holocaust wouldn't not have
happened.

How do these laws constitute "too much freedom?"?

Or is it only the freedom to target specific groups that you champion?
Post by Steve Dufour
He may very well be right. I could also be
misunderstanding the point of his essay.
I would say that is obvious.

</restore>
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 20:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Where do you get "guns" from anything in that essay? Nothing of the
sort is even mentioned in passing.
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people."
"These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
So, he is not talking about the need for stronger gun laws, he is
talking about the use of that issue to "mask an attempt to strip power
from the only institution able to hold such groups accountable."
So why did you try to lie about that?
Is there a particular reason you snip the rest of the exchange without
so indicating?
If you like here is Rick's whole essay:

The Holocaust: Who Was Responsible?

June 1995
By Rick Ross

Why did Germans willingly cooperate, support or passively stand by as
six million Jews were exterminated? According to Daniel Goldhagen
author of a new book Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans
and the Holocaust, their mindset was virtually a national psychosis and
the product of a long history of anti-Semitism embedded in German
character. This is the crux of Goldhagen's thesis about the cause of
the Halocaust and it has drawn sharp criticism.

One big hole in this theory is the history of anti-Semitism throughout
Europe such as the Spanish Inquisitions, the expulsion of Jews from
Britain for almost 300 years, Jews restricted and accused of ritual
murder in Poland and let's not forget the depths of French
anti-Semitism exposed through the trial of Alfred Dreyfus. Why didn't
the Holocaust happen elsewhere in Europe? My grandmother told me
stories about Cossack massacres and Russian pogroms, and how my family
fled Poland at the turn of the century to escape persecution, those
that stayed behind were lost in the Holocaust.

I want to believe Goldhagen's easy answers. That only a sick society
plagued by relatively unique cultural hatreds could commit such
horrific crimes. Such conclusions are comforting, but actually fail to
explain Adolph Hitler's Germany. Hitler was the Holocaust. Without
comprehending the scope of Nazi power, there is no understanding of the
Holocaust. Goldhagen's theory trivializes Nazi influence, their powers
of persuasion and Hitler's ability to mold an environment that produced
a mindset capable of genocide.

Nazi Germany was not the only nation in modern history taken over by a
destructive totalitarian regime. The "killing fields" of Cambodia,
cultural revolutions in both China and Iran, Stalin's purges and North
Korea's "Great Leader" are other examples of such terror. Likewise, no
nation is immune to the parallel powers of persuasion used by cults.
Tokyo's subway gassing by Aum and the mass suicide in Switzerland of
members of the Solar Temple are proof of that conclusion.

But my deeper interest lies in understanding the mindset produced by
controlling dictatorial groups and movements. For almost fifteen years
I have studied the process used by cults and radical groups to mold the
minds of members. Hundred of individual interventions have afforded me
an opportunity to unravel these programs of control and provided proof
of their power. I have worked with Waco Davidians, an anti-abortion
militia member and racist skinheads. Learning first-hand how easily
messianic leaders can create hatred, unreasonable fear and make
murderers.

My work began when my grandmother was confronted in a Jewish nursing
home by a crusading proselytizer. Subsequently a self-styled
"Hebrew-Christian" told me that the "Holocaust was God's judgment on
the Jews for rejecting Christ." Friederich Heer, an Austrian Catholic
religious scholar and author concluded, that the "problem of
anti-Semitism can be successfully solved only on this condition: that
outraged Christians become reconciled with themselves, that an
inclusive Christian religion seeks and finds reconciliation with
[people] of other religions and beliefs." Christians like Heer have
given up ethnocentric dogma, but crusades like "Jews for Jesus," prove
that many American "born-again" Christians have not.

The book Thought Reform and Psychology of Totalism, by Robert Lifton
examines former prisoners of war, once held within the prison camps of
North Korea. Lifton outlines how people can be changed and control
achieved, by a process chillingly reminiscent of Nazi Germany and not
unlike Orwell's 1984. The process begins with control of an
environment, associations, information, and then demands pure, absolute
commitment to a movement and its leaders. People are told to purge
thoughts not consistent with the program and a pseudo-science develops
that rationalizes the movement placing its claim and validity beyond
question. A special "loaded language" permeates the environment filled
with "thought terminating cliches." These combined elements lock
together programming individuals and producing a mindset that can
control a cult or dominate a nation.

Hitler's Third Reich manipulated the German people through what Lifton
calls the "dispensing of existence." The Nazis drew a sharp line down
"between those whose right to existence can be recognized," the pure
Aryan and "those who possess no such right" such as the Jew, portrayed
by their propaganda as an infestation of vermin. Thus genocide became
fumigation, or as Camus said a "crime of logic." I have witnessed the
effectiveness of such propaganda myself seeing how cult leaders like
Koresh could convince followers that their families were "satanic" and
therefore easily dispense with future communication cutting all ties.
Or, demonizing the government as many militias do enabling adherents to
murder citizens seemingly without conscience.

American history includes the killing of "Indians" labeled as "savages"
in the name of something called "manifest destiny." This racist mindset
rationalized by claims about Christian triumphalism and European
cultural superiority is another example of the "dispensing of
existence." How arrogant it is for Goldhagen to condemn Germans,
ignoring our own troubled history strewn with hate and massacres. I
have seen the same denial when audiences at my lectures insist that
only crazy, troubled people are involved in cults. It could never
happen to them or anyone in their family. Unfortunately the facts
indicate cult members include some of the best and brightest in our
society, often the product of solid loving families.

In Oklahoma City people wonder how someone became the willing
executioner of 170 innocent men, women and children. But there is a
mindset behind the madness at Waco and the bombing of the Murrah
building, a subculture bubbling beneath the surface of our society that
often erupts and explodes. Hitler understood how to exploit old
hatreds, fears and national schisms. He rose to power when Germany was
beset by economic hardship and turmoil, supported by people who wanted
a sense of security. Racism, slavery, the Klan and anti-Semitism are
all part of our history.

Today American are haunted by insecurities. Corporate "down-sizing" and
a highly competitive world market have caused hardships, and led to
fear and anxiety about the future. This has provided a platform for
polemicists, demagogues and would-be messiahs. From LaRouche to Moon,
Buchannon to Bo Gritz cults militias and the politics of hate cater to
fear and seemingly offer a sense of security, thriving on scapegoats
and conspiracy theories.

An astonishing number of Americans are now influenced by conspiracy
theories. A recent poll reported that 34% of American white males
believe citizens have the right to buy and stockpile large amounts of
weapons to oppose the Federal Government. Many believe dark forces now
control the FBI, BLM, IRS, FEMA, UN and Great Britain. Radio Internet
bulletin boards, E mail, Web sites and faxes jam the information
highway with paranoia, hate has gone hi-tech. Government employees have
been threatened by groups like the "Freeman of Jordan, Montana, now
locked in a standoff with the FBI. The Freeman, deeply anti-government
and phobic about the "new world order," have been radically changed by
the influence of their leaders, according to friends, family and
neighbors.

The influence of seemingly disparate, but extreme groups in the United
States has increased through networking. Cults, radical
anti-abortionists, the "Religious right," militias, old hate groups,
the far right and some so-called "conservative Republicans" often work
together. Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government,"
"over regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to
the people." These code phrases have become thought terminating
cliches, a facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only
institution able to hold such groups accountable.

Jerry Falwell attends a seminar sponsored by Moon's Unification church,
which controls the Washington Times, Insight, and The World and I
magazines. Congressman Sonny Bono helps promote the agenda of the
Church of Scientology through an organization called "Parents Involved
in Education which includes many conservative Christians. The "Citizens
Commission on Human Rights," founded by Scientology, pushes a bill in
Florida which would impede child abuse investigators and abolish the
Baker act, the state's psychiatric commitment law. Scientology also has
its own lawyers, not unlike tobacco companies, to harass and silence
critics. I myself have been subjected to such harassment.

Militia groups can rely upon sympathetic ears in Congress like
Representatives Steven Stockman of Texas and Helen Chenowith of Idaho.
Larry Pratt of "Gun Owners of America," who has been linked to militias
and white supremacists, held a high-ranking position in the Buchanan
campaign. Pratt has friends on the NRA board, ties to House majority
leader Richard Armey and has made contributions to Oliver North and
Stockman's campaigns, "Operation Rescue's" Randall Terry's defense
fund, " and Kirk Lyons CAUSE (now defunct). Lyons, a lawyer, once
defended white racists, has ties to the "Aryan Nations" and helped to
start the "Waco Justice Foundation."

The congressional hearing on Waco brought out not only the NRA but cult
apologists like James Tabor, Stuart Wright and Dean Kelley, all
recommend as resources by Scientology. In 1994 Leaders of the German
government called for a ban on Scientology saying it is "not a church
or a religious organization" but "a machine for manipulating human
beings."

According to Goldhagen Germany today is a "remade country." Germans
learned bitter lessons from the Nazi era. It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence. However, the primary source for hate literature today
in Germany is the United States. In 1995 Gary Rex Lauk, of Lincoln,
Nebraska, was arrested in Denmark and extradited by the German
government. Once one of the biggest distributors of neo-Nazi propaganda
in both the United States and Europe, Lauk was the single largest
source in Germany. However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech.

Americans are only just beginning to face the problems posed by radical
groups and cults. Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny. Equal accountability, and enforcement would be a meaningful
step in dealing with such groups. Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public. Education about
propaganda, coercive persuasion and undue influence should be offered
at school, along with courses to develop or improve critical thinking
skills.

Hitler changed people into "willing executioners." The Holocaust was
not the product of German culture, but the result of a reign of terror
brought about by the most heinous cult in human history. That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general429.html
Roger
2005-12-24 21:23:25 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Where do you get "guns" from anything in that essay? Nothing of the
sort is even mentioned in passing.
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people."
"These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
So, he is not talking about the need for stronger gun laws, he is
talking about the use of that issue to "mask an attempt to strip power
from the only institution able to hold such groups accountable."
So why did you try to lie about that?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Is there a particular reason you snip the rest of the exchange without
so indicating?
No, I'd like responses to the points I raised:

<restore>
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.
No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
It seems to me that he is saying that if Germany back in the 1920's and
30's had had anti-hate laws the rise of Nazism might have been
prevented.
If they hadn't had anti-Jewish laws, the Holocaust wouldn't not have
happened.

How do these laws constitute "too much freedom?"?

Or is it only the freedom to target specific groups that you champion?
Post by Steve Dufour
He may very well be right. I could also be
misunderstanding the point of his essay.
I would say that is obvious.

</restore>
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 21:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Fine. If that is what you want.
Post by Roger
<restore>
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
If the democratic German government had taken away the right of Nazis
to publish their propaganda they might not have come to power and the
Holocaust would not have happened.
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
If the United States government had forbidden US citizens from
supporting the Nazis in Germany they might not have come to power and
the Holocaust would not have happened.
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
No.
Post by Roger
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
No. I agree with this.
Post by Roger
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.
No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
It seems to me that he is saying that if Germany back in the 1920's and
30's had had anti-hate laws the rise of Nazism might have been
prevented.
If they hadn't had anti-Jewish laws, the Holocaust wouldn't not have
happened.
How do these laws constitute "too much freedom?"?
The time to take away some freedom was before the Nazis came to power.

I hope that you are happy now that I have responded to your questions.
:-)
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 21:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
Sorry that should be:

If the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
Roger
2005-12-24 22:04:54 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Fine. If that is what you want.
Post by Roger
<restore>
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
In what way does this suggest that "too much freedom" was the cause?
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
But Ross does not advocate this, or even mention it, so why do you lie
that it was a focus of this article?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
" It is now illegal for a
German to possess, produce or distribute Nazi materials and a crime to
incite violence."
Yes, and in Nazi Germany there were other classes of material which
were banned.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
If the democratic German government had taken away the right of Nazis
to publish their propaganda they might not have come to power and the
Holocaust would not have happened.
And this is the *only* way to have prevented it?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"However, the U.S. refused to cooperate with German
officials citing the Constitution's protection of free speech."
And they would have refused to cooperate with Nazi Germany in a
similar situation, for the same reason.
So where is the "too much freedom?"
If the United States government had forbidden US citizens from
supporting the Nazis in Germany they might not have come to power and
the Holocaust would not have happened.
Unlikely in the extreme, but let's see to try to justify this: how
instrumental was American support in the rise of the Third Reich?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Contrary to conspiracy theories promoted by cults,
militias and hate groups, they are not being persecuted by the
government, but seem instead to be rather unfairly exempted from legal
scrutiny."
So a lack of accountability is a *good* thing in your book?
No.
Post by Roger
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"Passing tougher laws regarding hate
crimes and terrorism would help to protect the public."
Do you dispute this?
No. I agree with this.
Post by Roger
Well?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
"That tragic
event forced Germans to recognize their vulnerabilities and the dangers
of undue influence. Hopefully, Americans can learn from modern Germany
and find hope in its solutions. "
I am not saying Rick is wrong. And he certainly has a right to his
opinion.
And your attempt to distort that opinion is documented for what it is.
No where does he make anything like the claim that "too much freedom"
was the cause of the Holocaust, which indeed anyone even passingly
familiar with the Nuremberg Laws and such would acknowledge.
It seems to me that he is saying that if Germany back in the 1920's and
30's had had anti-hate laws the rise of Nazism might have been
prevented.
If they hadn't had anti-Jewish laws, the Holocaust wouldn't not have
happened.
How do these laws constitute "too much freedom?"?
The time to take away some freedom was before the Nazis came to power.
I hope that you are happy now that I have responded to your questions.
:-)
No, since you continue to distort the content of the essay.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 22:13:34 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
But Ross does not advocate this, or even mention it, so why do you lie
that it was a focus of this article?
Rick Ross does seem to be an advocate of stricter gun control. Here
are some quotes from his essay that suggest this to me. You are right
that this is not his main focus:

"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able

to hold such groups accountable."
"An astonishing number of Americans are now influenced by conspiracy
theories. A recent poll reported that 34% of American white males
believe citizens have the right to buy and stockpile large amounts of
weapons to oppose the Federal Government."

"Militia groups can rely upon sympathetic ears in Congress like
Representatives Steven Stockman of Texas and Helen Chenowith of Idaho.
Larry Pratt of "Gun Owners of America," who has been linked to militias

and white supremacists, held a high-ranking position in the Buchanan
campaign. Pratt has friends on the NRA board, ties to House majority
leader Richard Armey and has made contributions to Oliver North and
Stockman's campaigns, "Operation Rescue's" Randall Terry's defense
fund, " and Kirk Lyons CAUSE (now defunct). Lyons, a lawyer, once
defended white racists, has ties to the "Aryan Nations" and helped to
start the "Waco Justice Foundation.""

<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the democratic German government had taken away the right of Nazis
to publish their propaganda they might not have come to power and the
Holocaust would not have happened.
And this is the *only* way to have prevented it?
No but in my opinion it would have worked.

<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the United States government had forbidden US citizens from
supporting the Nazis in Germany they might not have come to power and
the Holocaust would not have happened.
Unlikely in the extreme, but let's see to try to justify this: how
instrumental was American support in the rise of the Third Reich?
Some people say it was very important. I wasn't there so I don't know
first hand.

<snip to make the thread readable>
Roger
2005-12-24 22:35:17 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
But Ross does not advocate this, or even mention it, so why do you lie
that it was a focus of this article?
Rick Ross does seem to be an advocate of stricter gun control. Here
are some quotes from his essay that suggest this to me. You are right
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
Once again -- this is not a quote in favour of tighter gun control
laws, it is an argument *against* those using that issue as a facade
to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able to
hold such groups accountable."

Why do you continue to lie about this?
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the democratic German government had taken away the right of Nazis
to publish their propaganda they might not have come to power and the
Holocaust would not have happened.
And this is the *only* way to have prevented it?
No but in my opinion it would have worked.
Ah, so it is *you* that advocates draconian gun control, not Ross.
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the United States government had forbidden US citizens from
supporting the Nazis in Germany they might not have come to power and
the Holocaust would not have happened.
Unlikely in the extreme, but let's see to try to justify this: how
instrumental was American support in the rise of the Third Reich?
Some people say it was very important. I wasn't there so I don't know
first hand.
... but that doesn't stop you from trying to assert it.

So how *do* you justify telling such lies?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 23:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
But Ross does not advocate this, or even mention it, so why do you lie
that it was a focus of this article?
Rick Ross does seem to be an advocate of stricter gun control. Here
are some quotes from his essay that suggest this to me. You are right
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
Once again -- this is not a quote in favour of tighter gun control
laws, it is an argument *against* those using that issue as a facade
to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able to
hold such groups accountable."
Why do you continue to lie about this?
Rick does seem, to me, to be an advocate of stricter gun control laws.
Here, again, are some things he says on the subject:

"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able

to hold such groups accountable."

"An astonishing number of Americans are now influenced by conspiracy
theories. A recent poll reported that 34% of American white males
believe citizens have the right to buy and stockpile large amounts of
weapons to oppose the Federal Government."

"Militia groups can rely upon sympathetic ears in Congress like
Representatives Steven Stockman of Texas and Helen Chenowith of Idaho.
Larry Pratt of "Gun Owners of America," who has been linked to militias

and white supremacists, held a high-ranking position in the Buchanan
campaign. Pratt has friends on the NRA board, ties to House majority
leader Richard Armey and has made contributions to Oliver North and
Stockman's campaigns, "Operation Rescue's" Randall Terry's defense
fund, " and Kirk Lyons CAUSE (now defunct). Lyons, a lawyer, once
defended white racists, has ties to the "Aryan Nations" and helped to
start the "Waco Justice Foundation.""
Post by Roger
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the democratic German government had taken away the right of Nazis
to publish their propaganda they might not have come to power and the
Holocaust would not have happened.
And this is the *only* way to have prevented it?
No but in my opinion it would have worked.
Ah, so it is *you* that advocates draconian gun control, not Ross.
In some cases, yes.
Post by Roger
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the United States government had forbidden US citizens from
supporting the Nazis in Germany they might not have come to power and
the Holocaust would not have happened.
Unlikely in the extreme, but let's see to try to justify this: how
instrumental was American support in the rise of the Third Reich?
Some people say it was very important. I wasn't there so I don't know
first hand.
... but that doesn't stop you from trying to assert it.
So how *do* you justify telling such lies?
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Roger
2005-12-24 23:13:57 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
The the democratic government had taken away the guns owned by the Nazi
party members the they might not have come to power and the Holocaust
would not have happened.
But Ross does not advocate this, or even mention it, so why do you lie
that it was a focus of this article?
Rick Ross does seem to be an advocate of stricter gun control. Here
are some quotes from his essay that suggest this to me. You are right
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
Once again -- this is not a quote in favour of tighter gun control
laws, it is an argument *against* those using that issue as a facade
to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able to
hold such groups accountable."
Why do you continue to lie about this?
Rick does seem, to me, to be an advocate of stricter gun control laws.
Yes, but it's been established that you simply see yourself reflected
in the distortion of his words.
Post by Steve Dufour
"Their common agenda includes attacks on "big government," "over
regulation" such as gun laws and supposedly returning "power to the
people." These code phrases have become thought terminating cliches, a
facade to mask an attempt to strip power from the only institution able
to hold such groups accountable."
And here again, it the response:

This is not a quote in favour of tighter gun control laws, it is an
argument *against* those using that issue as a facade to mask an
attempt to strip power from the only institution able to hold such
groups accountable."
Post by Steve Dufour
"An astonishing number of Americans are now influenced by conspiracy
theories. A recent poll reported that 34% of American white males
believe citizens have the right to buy and stockpile large amounts of
weapons to oppose the Federal Government."
Which says nothing about his opinion of gun control laws.
Post by Steve Dufour
"Militia groups can rely upon sympathetic ears in Congress like
Representatives Steven Stockman of Texas and Helen Chenowith of Idaho.
Larry Pratt of "Gun Owners of America," who has been linked to militias
and white supremacists, held a high-ranking position in the Buchanan
campaign. Pratt has friends on the NRA board, ties to House majority
leader Richard Armey and has made contributions to Oliver North and
Stockman's campaigns, "Operation Rescue's" Randall Terry's defense
fund, " and Kirk Lyons CAUSE (now defunct). Lyons, a lawyer, once
defended white racists, has ties to the "Aryan Nations" and helped to
start the "Waco Justice Foundation.""
Which says nothing about his opinion of gun control laws.
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the democratic German government had taken away the right of Nazis
to publish their propaganda they might not have come to power and the
Holocaust would not have happened.
And this is the *only* way to have prevented it?
No but in my opinion it would have worked.
Ah, so it is *you* that advocates draconian gun control, not Ross.
In some cases, yes.
So why not just say *that*, instead of lying about Ross?
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Zinj
<snip>
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
If the United States government had forbidden US citizens from
supporting the Nazis in Germany they might not have come to power and
the Holocaust would not have happened.
Unlikely in the extreme, but let's see to try to justify this: how
instrumental was American support in the rise of the Third Reich?
Some people say it was very important. I wasn't there so I don't know
first hand.
... but that doesn't stop you from trying to assert it.
So how *do* you justify telling such lies?
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 23:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Roger
2005-12-24 23:22:03 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Because you say so?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-24 23:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Because you say so?
That's why it's called an opinion. :-)
Roger
2005-12-24 23:32:18 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Because you say so?
That's why it's called an opinion. :-)
Except that most opinions on historical matters are based on the
historical facts.

At least the historical opinions of *rational* people are.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-25 05:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Because you say so?
That's why it's called an opinion. :-)
Except that most opinions on historical matters are based on the
historical facts.
At least the historical opinions of *rational* people are.
Here's an article you could start with:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm

'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Roger
2005-12-25 12:41:48 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Because you say so?
That's why it's called an opinion. :-)
Except that most opinions on historical matters are based on the
historical facts.
At least the historical opinions of *rational* people are.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
Sara Salzman
2005-12-25 14:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
I understand that a number of well know Americans were supporters of
the Nazis, Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg among them.
Which is not the same thing as "If the United States government had
forbidden US citizens from supporting the Nazis in Germany they might
not have come to power and the Holocaust would not have happened,"
unless you are going to assert that these two gentlemen single
handedly financed the rise of the Third Reich.
They could have had some effect.
Because you say so?
That's why it's called an opinion. :-)
Except that most opinions on historical matters are based on the
historical facts.
At least the historical opinions of *rational* people are.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
Unfortunately, it's ten years too late. George died in 1995. (He was
104). He was a family friend.

Sara
--
The Jews may think all people are stupid when I reality the are watch ever
move you people make.

An old German saying is the Jews will give nothing for what you did have
before. The Jews supporting poor black people means there will be absolutely
no return of some of the money this alone speaks for itself.
-- Kurt Knoll.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-25 16:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Salzman
The Jews may think all people are stupid when I reality the are watch ever
move you people make.
An old German saying is the Jews will give nothing for what you did have
before. The Jews supporting poor black people means there will be absolutely
no return of some of the money this alone speaks for itself.
-- Kurt Knoll.
It sounds like Kurt needs a better German to English translator. :-)

Happy Hannukah Sara!
Steve Dufour
2005-12-26 04:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Salzman
The Jews may think all people are stupid
No, just some people.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-26 13:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-George Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
Unfortunately, it's ten years too late. George died in 1995. (He was
104). He was a family friend.
His book is still for sale on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007DUZHI/qid=1135604033/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7659721-0047114?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

If that doesn't work just search for his last name.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-26 13:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-George Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
Unfortunately, it's ten years too late. George died in 1995. (He was
104). He was a family friend.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007DUZHI/qid=1135604033/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7659721-0047114?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
If that doesn't work just search for his last name.
I just checked out his bio on Wikipedia. He sounds like quite an
amazing guy Sara.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seldes
Sara Salzman
2005-12-26 17:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-George Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
Unfortunately, it's ten years too late. George died in 1995. (He was
104). He was a family friend.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007DUZHI/qid=1135604033/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1
/104-7659721-0047114?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
If that doesn't work just search for his last name.
I just checked out his bio on Wikipedia. He sounds like quite an
amazing guy Sara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seldes
He was. So was his brother Gilbert, who had a house on Cape Cod. That's
where we knew him from.

When I was 5, Gilbert Seldes told me he's make me a star. :)

Sara
--
The Jews may think all people are stupid when I reality the are watch ever
move you people make.

An old German saying is the Jews will give nothing for what you did have
before. The Jews supporting poor black people means there will be absolutely
no return of some of the money this alone speaks for itself.
-- Kurt Knoll.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-30 17:10:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Steve Dufour
I just checked out his bio on Wikipedia. He sounds like quite an
amazing guy Sara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seldes
He was. So was his brother Gilbert, who had a house on Cape Cod. That's
where we knew him from.
When I was 5, Gilbert Seldes told me he's make me a star. :)
Sara
Do you know anyone else in show biz? I just finished writing a
screenplay.
Sara Salzman
2005-12-30 19:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Steve Dufour
I just checked out his bio on Wikipedia. He sounds like quite an
amazing guy Sara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seldes
He was. So was his brother Gilbert, who had a house on Cape Cod. That's
where we knew him from.
When I was 5, Gilbert Seldes told me he's make me a star. :)
Sara
Do you know anyone else in show biz? I just finished writing a
screenplay.
Unfortunately, most of the people I know have, like Seldes, moved on to
a higher place.

Sara
--
The Jews may think all people are stupid when I reality the are watch ever
move you people make.

An old German saying is the Jews will give nothing for what you did have
before. The Jews supporting poor black people means there will be absolutely
no return of some of the money this alone speaks for itself.
-- Kurt Knoll.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-30 22:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by Steve Dufour
I just checked out his bio on Wikipedia. He sounds like quite an
amazing guy Sara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Seldes
He was. So was his brother Gilbert, who had a house on Cape Cod. That's
where we knew him from.
When I was 5, Gilbert Seldes told me he's make me a star. :)
Sara
Do you know anyone else in show biz? I just finished writing a
screenplay.
Unfortunately, most of the people I know have, like Seldes, moved on to
a higher place.
I'm sorry to hear that. But I'm sure he did a lot of good things in
his life.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-27 02:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
http://www.3pgd.org/vehicles.htm (check out the pictures of German
Ford military vehicles)

THE LITTLE KNOWN STORY OF HENRY FORD

This is one of the many tales of WWII one never finds in the history
books. Henry Ford, pioneer of the assembly line, quickly emerged as a
major international industrialist after the first World War. After much
in vestment, he opened manufacturing facilities overseas in various
areas of Europe, including Cologne, Germany.
Henry Ford, admired Hitler from the beginning when the future Fuhrer
was a struggling and obscure radical. He shared with Hitler a fanatical
anti-semitic hatred of Jews. Ford's book 'The International Jew' was
issued in 1927. It was still being distributed in Latin America and the
Arab countries as late as 1945. Hitler admired the book and it
influenced him deeply. Visitors to Hitler's headquarters in Munich
noticed a large photograph of Henry Ford hanging in his office. Stacked
high on the table outside were copies of Ford's book. As early as
1923," when Hitler heard that Ford was planning to run for President,
he "told an interviewer from the 'Chicago-Tribune,' 'I wish that I
could send some of my shock troops to Chicago and other big American
cities to help.'"
As late as 1940, Ford Motor Company refused to build aircraft engines
for England and instead built supplies of military trucks that were the
backbone of German army transportation. Throughout WWII, the Ford Plant
in Köln, Germany produced over 125,000 vehicles. Vehicles were made in
several types, such as the troop carrier that you see here, flak
wagons, and ammunition carriers. Ford trucks continued to roll off the
German assembly lines at a rate of 40 per day even while American
soldiers where fighting and dying to defeat Germany.
Why was this allowed to happen? Henry Ford reasoned that Germany's
defeat was inevitable under the might of the Allied forces. He argued
that it was in America's best interest to keep the plant intact as it
would be crucial for America to keep an industrial presence in Germany
in the post war years to follow.
During the systematic bombing of all German industry, Henry Ford saw
that his multi-million dollar investment could literally go up in
smoke. Ford, before a Congressional hearing was rumored to have
announced, that if one bomb fell on his plant in Germany, he would stop
production of all military vehicles for the U.S.!
Upon much debate, accusations, and hush-hush talks, it appeared that
Henry Ford, Captain of Industry, got his way. At the end of World War
II, on May 8, 1945, when all of Germany was in ruin, the Ford Assembly
Plant in Köln was the only war-time manufacturing facility never to be
targeted for bombing. Vehicle production resumed later that day, at the
same site that continues to produce Ford automobiles in Germany to this
day.
Roger
2005-12-27 10:04:27 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
<snip>

Ah, so you cannot do so.

So noted.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-27 22:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zinj
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
<snip>
Ah, so you cannot do so.
So noted.
You might have to buy the book yourself.

Here is another article:

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_06.htm

Henry Ford and the Nazis


I would like to outline the importance attached by high [Nazi]
officials to respect the desire and maintain the good will of "Ford,"
and by "Ford" I mean your father, yourself, and the Ford Motor Company,
Dearborn. (Josiah E. Dubois, Jr, Generals in Grey Suits, London: The
Bodley Head, 1953, p. 250.)


Henry Ford is often seen to be something of an enigma among the Wall
Street elite. For many years in the 20s and 30s Ford was popularly
known as an enemy of the financial establishment. Ford accused Morgan
and others of using war and revolution as a road to profit and their
influence in social systems as a means of personal advancement. By 1938
Henry Ford, in his public statements, had divided financiers into two
classes: those who profited from war and used their influence to bring
about war for profit, and the "constructive" financiers. Among the
latter group he now included the House of Morgan. During a 1938 New
York Times interview1 Ford averred that:

Somebody once said that sixty families have directed the destinies of
the nation. It might well be said that if somebody would focus the
spotlight on twenty-five persons who handle the nation's finances, the
world's real warmakers would be brought into bold relief.

The Times reporter asked Ford how he equated this assessment with his
long-standing criticism of the House of Morgan, to which Ford replied:

There is a constructive and a destructive Wall Street. The House of
Morgan represents the constructive. I have known Mr. Morgan for many
years. He backed and supported Thomas Edison, who was also my good
friend ....

After expounding on the evils of limited agricultural production -
allegedly brought about by Wall Street - Ford continued,

... if these financiers had their way we'd be in a war now. They want
war because they make money out of such conflict - out of the human
misery that wars bring.

On the other hand, when we probe behind these public statements we find
that Henry Ford and son Edsel Ford have been in the forefront of
American businessmen who try to walk both sides of every ideological
fence in search of profit. Using Ford's own criteria, the Fords are
among the "destructive" elements.

It was Henry Ford who in the 1930s built the Soviet Union's first
modern automobile plant (located at Gorki) and which in the 50s and 60s
produced the trucks used by the North Vietnamese to carry weapons and
munitions for use against Americans.2 At about the same time, Henry
Ford was also the most famous of Hitler's foreign backers, and he was
rewarded in the 1930s for this long-lasting support with the highest
Nazi decoration for foreigners.

This Nazi favor aroused a storm of controversy in the United States and
ultimately degenerated into an exchange of diplomatic notes between the
German Government and the State Department. While Ford publicly
protested that he did not like totalitarian governments, we find in
practice that Ford knowingly profited from both sides of World War II
- from French and German plants producing vehicles at a profit for
the Wehrmacht, and from U.S. plants building vehicles at a profit for
the U.S. Army.

Henry Ford's protestations of innocence suggest, as we shall see in
this chapter, that he did not approve of Jewish financiers profiting
from war (as some have), but if anti-Semitic Morgan3 and Ford profited
from war that was acceptable, moral and "constructive."


Henry Ford: Hitler's First Foreign Backer

On December 20, 1922 the New York Times reported4 that automobile
manufacturer Henry Ford was financing Adolph Hitler's nationalist and
anti-Semitic movements in Munich. Simultaneously, the Berlin newspaper
Berliner Tageblatt appealed to the American Ambassador in Berlin to
investigate and halt Henry Ford's intervention into German domestic
affairs. It was reported that Hitler's foreign backers had furnished a
"spacious headquarters" with a "host of highly paid lieutenants and
officials." Henry Ford's portrait was prominently displayed on the
walls of Hitler's personal office:

The wall behind his desk in Hitler's private office is decorated with a
large picture of Henry Ford. In the antechamber there is a large table
covered with books, nearly all of which are a translation of a book
written and published by Henry Ford.5

The same New York Times report commented that the previous Sunday
Hitler had reviewed,

The so-called Storming Battalion.., 1,000 young men in brand new
uniforms and armed with revolvers and blackjacks, while Hitler and his
henchmen drove around in two powerful brand-new autos.

The Times made a clear distinction between the German monarchist
parties and Hitler's anti-Semitic fascist party. Henry Ford, it was
noted, ignored the Hohenzollern monarchists and put his money into the
Hitlerite revolutionary movement.

These Ford funds were used by Hitler to foment the Bavarian rebellion.
The rebellion failed, and Hitler was captured and subsequently brought
to trial. In February 1923 at the trial, vice president Auer of the
Bavarian Diet testified:

The Bavarian Diet has long had the information that the Hitler movement
was partly financed by an American anti-Semitic chief, who is Henry
Ford. Mr. Ford's interest in the Bavarian anti-Semitic movement began a
year ago when one of Mr. Ford's agents, seeking to sell tractors, came
in contact with Diedrich Eichart, the notorious Pan-German. Shortly
after, Herr Eichart asked Mr. Ford's agent for financial aid. The agent
returned to America and immediately Mr. Ford's money began coming to
Munich.

Herr Hitler openly boasts of Mr. Ford's support and praises Mr. Ford as
a great individualist and a great anti-Semite. A photograph of Mr. Ford
hangs in Herr Hitler's quarters, which is the center of monarchist
movement.6

Hitler received a mild and comfortable prison sentence for his Bavarian
revolutionary activities. The rest from more active pursuits enabled
him to write Mein Kampf. Henry Ford's book, The International Jew,
earlier circulated by the Nazis, was translated by them into a dozen
languages, and Hitler utilized sections of the book verbatim in writing
Mein Kampf.7

We shall see later that Hitler's backing in the late 20s and early 30s
came from the chemical, steel, and electrical industry cartels, rather
than directly from individual industrialists. In 1928 Henry Ford merged
his German assets with those of the I.G. Farben chemical cartel. A
substantial holding, 40 percent of Ford Motor A.G. of Germany, was
transferred to I.G. Farben; Carl Bosch of I.G. Farben became head of
Ford A.G. Motor in Germany. Simultaneously, in the United States Edsel
Ford joined the board of American I.G. Farben. (See Chapter Two.)

Henry Ford Receives a Nazi Medal

A decade later, in August 1938 - after Hitler had achieved power with
the aid of the cartels - Henry Ford received the Grand Cross of the
German Eagle, a Nazi decoration for distinguished foreigners. The New
York Times reported it was the first time the Grand Cross had been
awarded in the United States and was to celebrate Henry Ford's 75th
birthday.8

The decoration raised a storm of criticism within Zionist circles in
the U.S. Ford backed off to the extent of publicly meeting with Rabbi
Leo Franklin of Detroit to express his sympathy for the plight of
German Jews:

My acceptance of a medal from the German people [said Ford] does not,
as some people seem to think, involve any sympathy on my part with
naziism. Those who have known me for many years realize that anything
that breeds hate is repulsive to me.9

The Nazi medal issue was picked up in a Cleveland speech by Secretary
of Interior Harold Ickes. Ickes criticized both Henry Ford and Colonel
Charles A. Lindbergh for accepting Nazi medals. The curious part of the
Ickes speech, made at a Cleveland Zionist Society banquet, was his
criticism of "wealthy Jews" and their acquisition and use of wealth:

A mistake made by a non-Jewish millionaire reflects upon him alone, but
a false step made by a Jewish man of wealth reflects upon his whole
race. This is harsh and unjust, but it is a fact that must be faced.10

Perhaps Ickes was tangentially referring to the roles of the Warburgs
in the I.G. Farben cartel: Warburgs were on the board of I.G. Farben in
the U.S. and Germany. In 1938 the Warburgs were being ejected by the
Nazis from Germany. Other German Jews, such as the Oppenheim bankers,
made their peace with the Nazis and were granted "honorary Aryan
status."


Ford Motor Company Assists the German War Effort

A post-war Congressional subcommittee investigating American support
for the Nazi military effort described the manner in which the Nazis
succeeded in obtaining U.S. technical and financial assistance as
"quite fantastic.11 Among other evidence the Committee was shown a
memorandum prepared in the offices of Ford-Werke A.G. on November 25,
1941, written by Dr. H. F. Albert to R. H. Schmidt, then president of
the board of Ford-Werke A.G. The memo cited the advantages of having a
majority of the German firm held by Ford Motor Company in Detroit.
German Ford had been able to exchange Ford parts for rubber and
critical war materials needed in 1938 and 1939 "and they would not have
been able to do that if Ford had not been owned by the United States."
Further, with a majority American interest German Ford would "more
easily be able to step in and dominate the Ford holdings throughout
Europe." It was even reported to the Committee that two top German Ford
officials had been in a bitter personal feud about who was to control
Ford of England, such "that one of them finally got up and left the
room in disgust."

According to evidence presented to the Committee, Ford-Werke A.G. was
technically transformed in the late 1930s into a German company. All
vehicles and their parts were produced in Germany, by German workers
using German materials under German direction and exported to European
and overseas territories of the United States and Great Britain. Any
needed foreign raw materials, rubber and nonferrous metals, were
obtained through the American Ford Company. American influence had been
more or less converted into a supporting position (Hilfsstellung) for
the German Ford plants.

At the outbreak of the war Ford-Werke placed itself at the disposal of
the Wehrmacht for armament production. It was assumed by the Nazis that
as long as Ford-Werke A.G. had an American majority, it would be
possible to bring the remaining European Ford companies under German
influence - i.e., that of Ford-Werke A.G. - and so execute Nazi
"Greater European" policies in the Ford plants in Amsterdam, Antwerp,
Paris, Budapest, Bucharest, and Copenhagen:

A majority, even if only a small one, of Americans is essential for the
transmittal of the newest American models, as well as American
production and sales methods. With the abolition of the American
majority, this advantage, as well as the intervention of the Ford Motor
Company to obtain raw materials and exports, would be lost, and the
German plant would practically only be worth its machine capacity.12

And, of course, this kind of strict neutrality, taking an international
rather than a national viewpoint, had earlier paid off for Ford Motor
Company in the Soviet Union, where Ford was held in high regard as the
ultimate of technical and economic efficiency to be achieved by the
Stak-hanovites.

In July 1942 word filtered back to Washington from Ford of France about
Ford's activities on behalf of the German war effort in Europe. The
incriminating information was promptly buried and even today only part
of the known documentation can be traced in Washington.

We do know, however, that the U.S. Consul General in Algeria had
possession of a letter from Maurice Dollfuss of French Ford - who
claimed to be the first Frenchman to go to Berlin after the fall of
France - to Edsel Ford about a plan by which Ford Motor could
contribute to the Nazi war effort. French Ford was able to produce 20
trucks a day for the Wehrmacht, which [wrote Dollfuss] is better than,

... our less fortunate French competitors are doing. The reason is that
our trucks are in very large demand by the German authorities and I
believe that as long as the war goes on and at least for some period of
time, all that we shall produce will be taken by the German authorities
.... I will satisfy myself by telling you that... the attitude you have
taken, together with your father, of strict neutrality, has been an
invaluable asset for the production of your companies in Europe.13

Dollfuss disclosed that profits from this German business were already
1.6 million francs, and net profits for 1941 were no less than
58,000,000 francs - because the Germans paid promptly for Ford's
output. On receipt of this news Edsel Ford cabled:

Delighted to hear you are making progress. Your letters most
interesting. Fully realize great handicap you are working under. Hope
you and family well. Regards.

s/ Edsel Ford14

Although there is evidence that European plants owned by Wall Street
interests were not bombed by the U.S. Air Force in World War II, this
restriction apparently did not reach the British Bombing Command. In
March 1942 the Royal Air Force bombed the Ford plant at Poissy, France.
A subsequent letter from Edsel Ford to Ford General Manager Sorenson
about this RAF raid commented, "Photographs of the plant on fire were
published in American newspapers but fortunately no reference was made
to the Ford Motor Company.15 In any event, the Vichy government paid
Ford Motor Company 38 million francs as compensation for damage done to
the Poissy plant. This was not reported in the U.S. press and would
hardly be appreciated by those Americans at war with Naziism. Dubois
asserts that these private messages from Ford in Europe were passed to
Edsel Ford by Assistant Secretary of State Breckenridge Long. This was
the same Secretary Long who one year later suppressed private messages
through the State Department concerning the extermination of Jews in
Europe. 16 Disclosure of those messages conceivably could have been
used to assist those desperate people.

A U.S. Air Force bombing intelligence report written in 1943 noted
that,

Principal wartime activities [of the Ford plant] are probably
manufacture of light trucks and of spare parts for all the Ford trucks
and cars in service in Axis Europe (including captured Russian
Molotovs).16

The Russian Molotovs were of course manufactured by the Ford-built
works at Gorki, Russia. In France during the war, passenger automobile
production was entirely replaced by military vehicles and for this
purpose three large additional buildings were added to the Poissy
factory. The main building contained about 500 machine tools, "all
imported from the United States and including a fair sprinkling of the
more complex types, such as Gleason gear cutters, Bullard automatics
and Ingersoll borers.17

Ford also extended its wartime activities into North Africa. In
December 1941 a new Ford Company, Ford-Afrique, was registered in
France and granted all the rights of the former Ford Motor Company,
Ltd. of England in Algeria, Tunisia, French Morocco, French Equatorial,
and French West Africa. North Africa was not accessible to British Ford
so this new Ford Company - registered in German-occupied France -
was organized to fill the gap. The directors were pro-Nazi and included
Maurice Dollfuss (Edsel Ford's correspondent) and Roger Messis
(described by the U.S. Algiers Consul General as "known to this office
by repute as unscrupulous, is stated to be a 100 percent pro-German")18

The U.S. Consul General also reported that propaganda was common in
Algiers about

... the collaboration of French-German-American capital and the
questionable sincerity of the American war effort, [there] is already
pointing an accusing finger at a transaction Which has been for long a
subject of discussion in commercial circles.19

In brief, there is documentary evidence that Ford Motor Company worked
on both sides of World War II. If the Nazi industrialists brought to
trial at Nuremburg were guilty of crimes against mankind, then so must
be their fellow collaborators in the Ford family, Henry and Edsel Ford.
However, the Ford story was concealed by Washington - apparently like
almost everything else that could touch upon the name and sustenance of
the Wall Street financial elite.



Footnotes:

1June 4, 1938, 2:2.

2A list of these Gorki vehicles and their model numbers is in Antony G.
Sutton, National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union, (New York:
Arlington House Publishers, 1973), Table 7-2, p. 125.

3The House of Morgan was known for its anti-Semitic views.

4Page 2, Column 8.

5Ibid.

6Jonathan Leonard, The Tragedy of Henry Ford, (New York: G.P. Putnam's
Sons, 1932), p. 208. Also see U.S. State Department Decimal File,
National Archives Microcopy M 336, Roll 80, Document 862.00S/6, "Money
sources of Hitler," a report from the U.S. Embassy in Berlin.

7On this see Keith Sward, The Legend of Henry Ford, (New York: Rinehart
& Co, 1948), p. 139.

8New York Times, August l, 1938.

9Ibid., December 1, 1938, 12:2.

10Ibid., December 19, 1938, 5:3.

11Elimination of German Resources, p. 656.

12Elimination of German Resources, pp. 657-8.

13Josiah E. Dubois, Jr., Generals in Grey Suits, (London: The Bodley
Head, 1958), p. 248.

14Ibid., p. 249.

15Ibid., p. 251.

16Ibid.

17U.S. Army Air Force, Aiming point report No I.E.2, May 29, 1943.

18U.S. State Department Decimal File, 800/61o.1.

19Ibid.
Roger
2005-12-28 05:23:03 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Zinj
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
<snip>
Ah, so you cannot do so.
So noted.
You might have to buy the book yourself.
How do you know that I have not already done so, long ago? Is it your
contention that the book cites the *original* interview?
... which doesn't support your lies either .
Steve Dufour
2005-12-28 14:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Zinj
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
<snip>
Ah, so you cannot do so.
So noted.
You might have to buy the book yourself.
How do you know that I have not already done so, long ago? Is it your
contention that the book cites the *original* interview?
... which doesn't support your lies either .
In that case here is another on Ford's support of the Nazis:

http://www.stockmaven.com/MaxWallace.htm

The American Axis:
Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh and the Rise of the Third Reich
by Max Wallace

Excerpt From Chapter 12

Part One | Part Two | Part Three | Part Four

After Pearl Harbor, as Ford claims, Dearborn did lose effective
day-to-day control over the Ford-Werke plant. According to Simon Reich,
the consultant hired to oversee the project, the plant's relationship
with Dearborn became increasingly "attenuated" during the 1930's and
non-existent after Pearl Harbor. Reich makes the point that, "short of
divestment by the American parent, Ford's German managers had little
choice but to try to address Nazi demands."

This may or may not be true. A significant body of evidence shows that
it was Ford Germany, with the full consent of Dearborn, that solicited
the Nazis to begin awarding the company military contracts in the first
place. The Nazis never in fact forced the company to manufacture on
behalf of its military machine. But, for the sake of argument, it can
be assumed that the government may have eventually compelled the
company to assist the German war effort. If that had happened, as Reich
argues, Dearborn would have been left with only two choices. The parent
company would either be forced to comply with government demands or
divest its German holdings, sacrificing potentially large profits.

In 1940, of course, Henry Ford and his company chose "principles" over
profits, opting to give up the British Rolls Royce engine contract
because of his alleged reluctance to "manufacture for a foreign
belligerent," thereby sacrificing millions of dollars in lost revenues.
Before Pearl Harbor, when it still controlled its German subsidiary,
Dearborn could have done the same thing, refusing to participate in the
German war effort. Instead, as Reich acknowledges, "Ford did absolutely
everything they could to ingratiate themselves to the Nazi state."

Reich maintains that after 1939, the German subsidiary acted with
growing autonomy from the American parent company, which was "often
ill-informed" about activities in Germany. This assertion is certainly
not borne out by a letter Ford-Werke Chairman Heinrich Albert sent
Edsel Ford in July, 1940 seeking permission to hire Albert's own son to
work at the Cologne plant. This evidence of Dearborn micro management
almost a year after the war began hardly demonstrates the German
subsidiary's growing autonomy.

It is almost impossible to ascertain exactly how much Dearborn knew
about the German plant's activities before and after Pearl Harbor. The
Ford research team had access to more than one hundred letters
exchanged between Ford-Werke and Dearborn before Pearl Harbor, and
Reich insists there is no evidence in the letters to indicate that the
parent company knew about the use of forced labor. But this paper trail
doesn't reveal the whole story. In September, 1940, V.Y. Tallberg, a
former chief inspector at the Cologne plant, sailed from Germany to the
United States with instructions from Ford-Werke management to "tell the
people in Dearborn how conditions were and what wewere doing in the
plant."No record exists about what he reported but it is likely that
Dearborn was much better informed about the activities of its German
plant than the surviving documentation would suggest.

In fact, the possibility of missing documents was the only real
constraint faced by Reich and the Ford research team. "We could only
work with what was there," says Reich. However, it is impossible to
determine how much wartime documentation is actually missing from the
company's archives. The recollections of former Chrysler Chairman Lee
Iacocca - who began his automotive career at the Ford Motor Company
in the 1950's, working under Edsel's son, Henry Ford II - suggests
there may be a great deal. In his 1984 autobiography, Iacocca recalls
his employer's attitude about preserving company documentation: "Henry
actually used to boast that he never kept any files. Every now and then
he would burn all his papers. He told me, 'That stuff can only hurt
you. Some day you could be crucified for keeping all that stuff'."

Although it acknowledges that it had a controlling financial stake in
the plant throughout the war, the Ford Motor Company has always claimed
that it lost all communication with Ford Werke after Pearl Harbor and
therefore had no knowledge of, or responsibility for, its activities
after December 7, 1941. But in 1944, a former Ford-Werke employee named
Oscar Bornheim told US military authorities that former plant
co-manager Erhard Vitger had "been in communication via radio-telephone
with the Detroit offices of the Ford Motor Company" subsequent to 1942.
If true, this would have represented a serious violation of US Trading
With the Enemy laws, presenting grounds for prosecution of the parent
company. However, there was no way of proving the allegation and
authorities were forced to drop the investigation. Nevertheless, it
underscores a point that the company has been anxious to downplay since
the charges of war-time Nazi complicity first surfaced. Unlike most
other American corporations operating in Germany after America entered
the war, Ford Werke was not actually run by Nazis; it was still being
operated by long-time Ford employees, most of them hired by Dearborn
more than a decade earlier and fiercely loyal to the parent company's
interests. In an affidavit supporting Elsa Iwanowa's slave labor
lawsuit, Ford-Werke's wartime head of production Hans Grande denied
that the Nazis were calling the shots:

"We on the floor, we didn't have the impression we were working for the
Government but that we were still owned by the [American] shareholders
and that we were working for Ford, for the Ford Motor Company."

Grande, who went on to become Ford's Vice-President of European
Operations after the war, acknowledged that "Our first priority was to
look after the company's interests, even after Pearl Harbor."
kilgore trout
2005-12-28 15:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
Hey "maroon" why do you do that? Are you unable to
paraphrase? OK OK Ford operated plants in Germany
during the war. If I was Ford I would have too. As
well as run Bayer, Mercedes whatever else I could
collect on. Im sure the Wehrmacht was very
appreciative. Why shouldnt the only people in the
world fighting communism have reliable transportation?
I dont think Henry is rolling in his grave. He is
proud probably. He should be. He made money off of
two pairs of knuckleheads.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-28 16:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by kilgore trout
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
Hey "maroon" why do you do that? Are you unable to
paraphrase? OK OK Ford operated plants in Germany
during the war. If I was Ford I would have too. As
well as run Bayer, Mercedes whatever else I could
collect on. Im sure the Wehrmacht was very
appreciative. Why shouldnt the only people in the
world fighting communism have reliable transportation?
I dont think Henry is rolling in his grave. He is
proud probably. He should be. He made money off of
two pairs of knuckleheads.
Roger asked me for more information on Ford's support of the Hitler.
BTW The Communists would have never done as well as they did, taking
over Eastern Europe and all, without him. But then he wouldn't have
gotten as far as he did without them.

ooops...sorry...that was a paraphrased opinion too.
Roger
2005-12-29 10:55:25 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by kilgore trout
Post by Roger
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
Hey "maroon" why do you do that? Are you unable to
paraphrase? OK OK Ford operated plants in Germany
during the war. If I was Ford I would have too. As
well as run Bayer, Mercedes whatever else I could
collect on. Im sure the Wehrmacht was very
appreciative. Why shouldnt the only people in the
world fighting communism have reliable transportation?
I dont think Henry is rolling in his grave. He is
proud probably. He should be. He made money off of
two pairs of knuckleheads.
Roger asked me for more information on Ford's support of the Hitler.
No, he didn't. He asked you to support your crap that a law
forbidding American investment in Germany would have prevented the
Nazi Party's rise to power.

Instead of offering that support, you have offered an un attributed
quote from Dodd, and then ran from that to offer well known facts
about Ford, without any attempt at all to *quantify* what that
investment mean to the overall economic picture, such that the Nazis
could not possibly have taken over with out it.

Why do you think that lying about what the thread clearly shows would
actually *advance* your cause?
Post by Steve Dufour
BTW The Communists would have never done as well as they did, taking
over Eastern Europe and all, without him. But then he wouldn't have
gotten as far as he did without them.
ooops...sorry...that was a paraphrased opinion too.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-29 16:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Roger asked me for more information on Ford's support of the Hitler.
No, he didn't. He asked you to support your crap that a law
forbidding American investment in Germany would have prevented the
Nazi Party's rise to power.
Instead of offering that support, you have offered an unattributed
quote from Dodd, and then ran from that to offer well known facts
about Ford, without any attempt at all to *quantify* what that
investment mean to the overall economic picture, such that the Nazis
could not possibly have taken over with out it.
You might try asking your question in soc.history.what-if.
Roger
2005-12-29 22:21:10 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Roger asked me for more information on Ford's support of the Hitler.
No, he didn't. He asked you to support your crap that a law
forbidding American investment in Germany would have prevented the
Nazi Party's rise to power.
Instead of offering that support, you have offered an unattributed
quote from Dodd, and then ran from that to offer well known facts
about Ford, without any attempt at all to *quantify* what that
investment mean to the overall economic picture, such that the Nazis
could not possibly have taken over with out it.
You might try asking your question in soc.history.what-if.
Are you finally going to admit that you cannot factually support your
crap?
Steve Dufour
2005-12-29 22:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
You might try asking your question in soc.history.what-if.
Are you finally going to admit that you cannot factually support your
crap?
If I had a why of factually answering the question, "What would have
happened if Henry Ford and other Americans had not supported Hitler?" I
would let you know right away.
Steve Dufour
2005-12-30 00:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
You might try asking your question in soc.history.what-if.
Are you finally going to admit that you cannot factually support your
crap?
If I had a why of factually answering the question, "What would have
happened if Henry Ford and other Americans had not supported Hitler?" I
would let you know right away.
oops...make that "way" not "why"
Roger
2005-12-29 10:51:03 UTC
Permalink
In one age, called the Second Age by some,
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Steve Dufour wrote
in message
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Zinj
Post by Roger
Post by Steve Dufour
http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm
'The US Ambassador to Germany, William E. Dodd, said in an interview
that "certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with
bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy."'
-Georg Seldes, Facts and Fascism (New York, 1943), p. 122
Okay, so now all you have to do is find the *original* citation for
this interview (who with? when?) so that the context can be assessed,
before we start to talk about the fact that this comment is, at least
as you have presented it, *still* not supported by any facts.
<snip>
Ah, so you cannot do so.
So noted.
You might have to buy the book yourself.
How do you know that I have not already done so, long ago? Is it your
contention that the book cites the *original* interview?
Well?
Post by Roger
... which doesn't support your lies either .
.. which doesn't support your lies about Dodd.

Is there a reason you continue to try to change the subject?
Topaz
2006-01-02 02:07:37 UTC
Permalink
by Theodore J. O'Keefe

Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of
the Holocaust story in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes
US troops discovered when they entered German concentration camps at
the close of World War II.

At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified US infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising
stories of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by
showing the GIs crematory ovens, alleged execution gas chambers,
supposed implements of torture, and even shrunken heads and
lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made from skin flayed
from dead inmates.

US government authorities, mindful that many Americans who remembered
the atrocity stories fed them during World War I still doubted the
Allied propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to
"document" what the GIs had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen
and politicians were flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while
the US Army Signal Corps filmed and photographed the scenes for
posterity. Famous journalist Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of
horror, but no longer of disbelief, what he had been told and shown,
and Dachau and
Buchenwald were branded on the hearts and minds of the American
populace as names of infamy unmatched in the sad and bloody history
of this planet.

For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of
torture and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory
propaganda campaign but of the conviction that, yes, it was true: the
Germans did exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas
chambers.

What the GIs found was used, by way of films that were mandatory
viewing for the vanquished populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the
German people by destroying their national pride and their will to a
united, independent national state, imposing in their place
overwhelming feelings of collective guilt and political impotence.
And when the testimony, and the verdict, of the Nuremberg Tribunal
incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories Americans were
told about
Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by the US Army, the
Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented, one of the most
authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes in the
human record.

A Different Reality

But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the
camps, American authorities were aware that the real story of the
camps was quite different from the one in which they were coaching
military public information officers, government spokesmen,
politicians, journalists, and other mouthpieces.

When American and British forces overran western and central Germany
in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with
discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes.

Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic
pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate
General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team,
Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German
camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim
work at Dachau, he was
questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.

Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What
we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that
is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his
biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist
on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations,
confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."

Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau,
Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or
deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as
well.

As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief
cause of death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease,
above all typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until
recently flourished in places where populations were crowded together
in circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had
broken down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in
Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic
delousing, quarantine of the sick and cremation of the dead, the
virtual
collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led
to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D.,
Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the
Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in
Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in
concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus
infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes
for the outbreaks as follows:

Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an
astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that,
homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them ...Germany was in
chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing
armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the
spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were
seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor,
housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere
lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring
such as few countries and few times have experienced.

Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who
volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn
oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who
died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II
weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of
diseases."

Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited
stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue
after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously
maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed
each day.

Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to
the contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy
of extermination through starvation in the German camps.

No 'Human Skin' Lampshades

What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other
artifacts? What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks,"
whipping posts, gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are
reported to have abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and
even more grotesque ones proffered by Soviet prosecutors, found their
way into the record at Nuremberg.

The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch,
dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to
have furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned
hides of luckless inmates.

But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the US zone of occupied
Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors in
Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch]
selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins
or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." In an
interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material
for the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that it was
goat flesh. But
at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for
her to have gotten a fair trial." Ilse Koch hanged herself in a German
jail in 1967.

It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre
claims as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German
cruelty, however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a
legal investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose
statements on the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been
challenged by proponents of the Jewish Holocaust story. Dr. Morgen
informed the court that he had been given full authority by Heinrich
Himmler,
commander of Hitler's SS and the dread Gestapo, to enter any German
concentration camp and investigate instances of cruelty and corruption
on the part of camp personnel. As he explained in sworn testimony at
Nuremberg, Dr. Morgen investigated 800 such cases, resulting in more
than 200 convictions. Punishments included the death penalty for the
worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt, commandant of Lublin
(Majdanek), and Karl Koch (Ilse's husband), commandant of Buchenwald.

While German camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and
it was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of
the prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual
beating. After all, throughout most of the war the camps were
important centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale
of the prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is
evidenced in a January 1943 order issued by SS General Richard Glücks,
chief of the office that supervised the
concentration camps. It held the camp commanders "personally
responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the physical
strength of the detainees." Camp Survivors: Merely Victims?
US Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps, were not the
guards but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same
stripe as those who populate US prisons today committed many
villainies, particularly when they held positions of authority, and
fanatical Communists, highly organized to combat their many
political enemies among the inmates, eliminated their foes with
Stalinist ruthlessness. Two US Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon
W. Fleck and Edward A. Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances
in the camp before its liberation. In a detailed report submitted to
their superiors, they revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their
commander, who wrote a preface to the report, "how the prisoners
themselves organized a deadly terror within the Nazi terror."

Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
Communists as follows:

The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist
Germans, had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They
could sentence a man or a group to almost certain death ... The
Communist trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the
brutalities at Buchenwald.

Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an
article published in an American magazine shortly after the war.
Colonel Robinson wrote succinctly of the American investigators'
findings: "It appeared that the prisoners who agreed with the
Communists ate; those who didn't starved to death."

Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by
Ellis E. Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and
Detentions for the US Seventh Army, was involved in the liberation of
Dachau. Spackman, later a professor of history at San Bernardino
Valley College in California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the
prisoners were the actual instruments that inflicted the barbarities
on their fellow prisoners."

'Gas Chambers'

In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel
Edward J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at
Struthof-Natzweiler in Alsace. They submitted their findings to their
superiors at the headquarters of the US 6th Army Group, which
subsequently forwarded their report to the US War Crimes Division.
While, significantly, the full text of their report has never been
published, it has been revealed, by a historian supportive of
Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to
characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a
"so-called lethal gas chamber," and to claim it was "allegedly used as
a lethal gas chamber." (Emphasis added)

Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its
effective suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the
confusion, and the blaring publicity that accompanied official reports
of alleged gas chambers at Dachau. At first, a US Army photo depicting
a GI gazing at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the
German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!," was
identified as showing the murder weapon.

Later, however, it was evidently decided that the apparatus in
question was merely a standard delousing chamber for clothing, and
another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as a shower
room, was exhibited to American congressmen and journalists as the
site where thousands breathed their last. While there exist numerous
reports in the press as to the operation of this second "gas chamber,"
no official report by trained Army investigators has yet surfaced to
reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads: Were they
"dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each theory
has appreciable support in journalistic and
historiographical literature.)

As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, and the other camps
liberated by the Allies in western Germany. There was no end of
propaganda about "gas chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far
not a single detailed description of the murder weapon and its
function, not a single report of the kind that is mandatory for the
successful prosecution of any assault or murder case in America at
that time and today, has come to light.

Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly
decreed that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany
after all. (We are now told that "gassing" and "extermination" camps
were located exclusively in what is now Poland, in areas captured by
the Soviet Red Army and made off-limits to western investigators.)

Dr. Martin Broszat of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary
History, which is funded by the German government, stated
categorically in a 1960 letter to the German weekly Die Zeit: "Neither
in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other
prisoners gassed." Professional "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal stated
in 1975 and again in 1993 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil."

Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and
grieving world as a weapon that claimed hundreds of thousands of
lives, is now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the
modern Dachau "memorial site" in these words: "This gas chamber,
camouflaged as a shower room, was not used."

The Propaganda Intensifies

More than 50 years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald
and other German camps, and trained American investigators established
the facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in
Washington, the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media
in New York continue to churn out millions of words and images
annually on the horrors of the camps and the infamy of the Holocaust.
Despite the fact that, with the exception of the defeated Confederacy,
no enemy of America has ever so suffered so complete and devastating
defeat as did Germany in 1945, the mass media and the politicians and
bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his troops, and his concentration
camps continue to exist in an eternal present, and our opinion makers
continue to distort, through ignorance or malice, the facts about the
camps.

Time for the Truth

It is time that the government and the professional historians reveal
the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald and the other camps. It is time
they let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they
didn't die. It is time that the claims of mass murder by gassing are
clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other claims of
murder. It is time that the free ride certain groups have enjoyed as
the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just as it
is time to end the scapegoating of other groups, including Germans,
eastern Europeans, the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and
Britain, either for their alleged role in the Holocaust or their
supposed failure to stop it.

Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great Republic have
the facts about the camps, facts they have a right to know, a right
that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their will
in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers,
Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right
and an overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents that
are deemed by those in positions of power to be significant in
determining America's foreign and educational policy, as well as its
selection of past events to be memorialized in our
civic life.

Today the alleged facts of the Holocaust are at issue all over the
civilized world. The truth will be decided only by recourse to the
facts, in the public forum: not by concealing the facts, denying the
truth, stonewalling reality. The truth will out, and it is time the
government of this country, and governments and international bodies
throughout the world, make public the evidence of what actually
transpired in the German concentration camps in the years 1933-1945,
so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or favor, and carry
out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and must be the
granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of a peace
based on justice.

Summary
The conclusions of the early US Army investigations as to the truth
about the wartime German concentration camps have since been
corroborated by all subsequent investigators and can be summarized:

1.The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result
of a German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of
epidemics of typhus and other disease brought about largely by the
effects of Allied aerial attacks.
2.Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and
others into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or
amusement were sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German
authorities punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp
commanders and guards.
3.On the other hand, portrayals of the newly liberated inmates as
saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far from the
truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp detainees
were the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of German
policy and German orders.
4.The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers were used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they
were used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible
fabrication. Orthodox historians and professional "Nazi-hunters" have
quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald
and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to keep silent
regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to evade an
open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz and
the
other camps captured by the Soviets.


Institute For Historical Review
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659





http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com
http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.RealNews247.com
Kevin Brady
2006-01-02 03:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Apparently, Topaz, you are an idiot!

Forgive the top-post.

KGB
Post by Topaz
by Theodore J. O'Keefe
Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of
the Holocaust story in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes
US troops discovered when they entered German concentration camps at
the close of World War II.
At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified US infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising
stories of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by
showing the GIs crematory ovens, alleged execution gas chambers,
supposed implements of torture, and even shrunken heads and
lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made from skin flayed
from dead inmates.
US government authorities, mindful that many Americans who remembered
the atrocity stories fed them during World War I still doubted the
Allied propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to
"document" what the GIs had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen
and politicians were flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while
the US Army Signal Corps filmed and photographed the scenes for
posterity. Famous journalist Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of
horror, but no longer of disbelief, what he had been told and shown,
and Dachau and
Buchenwald were branded on the hearts and minds of the American
populace as names of infamy unmatched in the sad and bloody history
of this planet.
For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of
torture and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory
propaganda campaign but of the conviction that, yes, it was true: the
Germans did exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas
chambers.
What the GIs found was used, by way of films that were mandatory
viewing for the vanquished populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the
German people by destroying their national pride and their will to a
united, independent national state, imposing in their place
overwhelming feelings of collective guilt and political impotence.
And when the testimony, and the verdict, of the Nuremberg Tribunal
incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories Americans were
told about
Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by the US Army, the
Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented, one of the most
authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes in the
human record.
A Different Reality
But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the
camps, American authorities were aware that the real story of the
camps was quite different from the one in which they were coaching
military public information officers, government spokesmen,
politicians, journalists, and other mouthpieces.
When American and British forces overran western and central Germany
in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with
discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes.
Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic
pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate
General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team,
Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German
camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim
work at Dachau, he was
questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.
Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What
we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that
is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his
biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist
on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations,
confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
Typhus, Not Poison Gas
If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau,
Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or
deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as
well.
As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief
cause of death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease,
above all typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until
recently flourished in places where populations were crowded together
in circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had
broken down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in
Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic
delousing, quarantine of the sick and cremation of the dead, the
virtual
collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led
to catastrophe.
Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D.,
Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the
Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in
Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in
concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus
infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes
Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an
astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that,
homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them ...Germany was in
chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing
armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the
spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were
seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor,
housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere
lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring
such as few countries and few times have experienced.
Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who
volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn
oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who
died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II
weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of
diseases."
Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited
stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue
after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously
maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed
each day.
Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to
the contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy
of extermination through starvation in the German camps.
No 'Human Skin' Lampshades
What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other
artifacts? What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks,"
whipping posts, gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are
reported to have abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and
even more grotesque ones proffered by Soviet prosecutors, found their
way into the record at Nuremberg.
The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch,
dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to
have furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned
hides of luckless inmates.
But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the US zone of occupied
Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors in
Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch]
selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins
or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." In an
interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material
for the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that it was
goat flesh. But
at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for
her to have gotten a fair trial." Ilse Koch hanged herself in a German
jail in 1967.
It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre
claims as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German
cruelty, however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a
legal investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose
statements on the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been
challenged by proponents of the Jewish Holocaust story. Dr. Morgen
informed the court that he had been given full authority by Heinrich
Himmler,
commander of Hitler's SS and the dread Gestapo, to enter any German
concentration camp and investigate instances of cruelty and corruption
on the part of camp personnel. As he explained in sworn testimony at
Nuremberg, Dr. Morgen investigated 800 such cases, resulting in more
than 200 convictions. Punishments included the death penalty for the
worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt, commandant of Lublin
(Majdanek), and Karl Koch (Ilse's husband), commandant of Buchenwald.
While German camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and
it was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of
the prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual
beating. After all, throughout most of the war the camps were
important centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale
of the prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is
evidenced in a January 1943 order issued by SS General Richard Glücks,
chief of the office that supervised the
concentration camps. It held the camp commanders "personally
responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the physical
strength of the detainees." Camp Survivors: Merely Victims?
US Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps, were not the
guards but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same
stripe as those who populate US prisons today committed many
villainies, particularly when they held positions of authority, and
fanatical Communists, highly organized to combat their many
political enemies among the inmates, eliminated their foes with
Stalinist ruthlessness. Two US Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon
W. Fleck and Edward A. Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances
in the camp before its liberation. In a detailed report submitted to
their superiors, they revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their
commander, who wrote a preface to the report, "how the prisoners
themselves organized a deadly terror within the Nazi terror."
Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist
Germans, had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They
could sentence a man or a group to almost certain death ... The
Communist trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the
brutalities at Buchenwald.
Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an
article published in an American magazine shortly after the war.
Colonel Robinson wrote succinctly of the American investigators'
findings: "It appeared that the prisoners who agreed with the
Communists ate; those who didn't starved to death."
Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by
Ellis E. Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and
Detentions for the US Seventh Army, was involved in the liberation of
Dachau. Spackman, later a professor of history at San Bernardino
Valley College in California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the
prisoners were the actual instruments that inflicted the barbarities
on their fellow prisoners."
'Gas Chambers'
In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel
Edward J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at
Struthof-Natzweiler in Alsace. They submitted their findings to their
superiors at the headquarters of the US 6th Army Group, which
subsequently forwarded their report to the US War Crimes Division.
While, significantly, the full text of their report has never been
published, it has been revealed, by a historian supportive of
Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to
characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a
"so-called lethal gas chamber," and to claim it was "allegedly used as
a lethal gas chamber." (Emphasis added)
Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its
effective suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the
confusion, and the blaring publicity that accompanied official reports
of alleged gas chambers at Dachau. At first, a US Army photo depicting
a GI gazing at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the
German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!," was
identified as showing the murder weapon.
Later, however, it was evidently decided that the apparatus in
question was merely a standard delousing chamber for clothing, and
another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as a shower
room, was exhibited to American congressmen and journalists as the
site where thousands breathed their last. While there exist numerous
reports in the press as to the operation of this second "gas chamber,"
no official report by trained Army investigators has yet surfaced to
reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads: Were they
"dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each theory
has appreciable support in journalistic and
historiographical literature.)
As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, and the other camps
liberated by the Allies in western Germany. There was no end of
propaganda about "gas chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far
not a single detailed description of the murder weapon and its
function, not a single report of the kind that is mandatory for the
successful prosecution of any assault or murder case in America at
that time and today, has come to light.
Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly
decreed that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany
after all. (We are now told that "gassing" and "extermination" camps
were located exclusively in what is now Poland, in areas captured by
the Soviet Red Army and made off-limits to western investigators.)
Dr. Martin Broszat of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary
History, which is funded by the German government, stated
categorically in a 1960 letter to the German weekly Die Zeit: "Neither
in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other
prisoners gassed." Professional "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal stated
in 1975 and again in 1993 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil."
Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and
grieving world as a weapon that claimed hundreds of thousands of
lives, is now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the
modern Dachau "memorial site" in these words: "This gas chamber,
camouflaged as a shower room, was not used."
The Propaganda Intensifies
More than 50 years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald
and other German camps, and trained American investigators established
the facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in
Washington, the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media
in New York continue to churn out millions of words and images
annually on the horrors of the camps and the infamy of the Holocaust.
Despite the fact that, with the exception of the defeated Confederacy,
no enemy of America has ever so suffered so complete and devastating
defeat as did Germany in 1945, the mass media and the politicians and
bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his troops, and his concentration
camps continue to exist in an eternal present, and our opinion makers
continue to distort, through ignorance or malice, the facts about the
camps.
Time for the Truth
It is time that the government and the professional historians reveal
the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald and the other camps. It is time
they let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they
didn't die. It is time that the claims of mass murder by gassing are
clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other claims of
murder. It is time that the free ride certain groups have enjoyed as
the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just as it
is time to end the scapegoating of other groups, including Germans,
eastern Europeans, the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and
Britain, either for their alleged role in the Holocaust or their
supposed failure to stop it.
Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great Republic have
the facts about the camps, facts they have a right to know, a right
that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their will
in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers,
Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right
and an overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents that
are deemed by those in positions of power to be significant in
determining America's foreign and educational policy, as well as its
selection of past events to be memorialized in our
civic life.
Today the alleged facts of the Holocaust are at issue all over the
civilized world. The truth will be decided only by recourse to the
facts, in the public forum: not by concealing the facts, denying the
truth, stonewalling reality. The truth will out, and it is time the
government of this country, and governments and international bodies
throughout the world, make public the evidence of what actually
transpired in the German concentration camps in the years 1933-1945,
so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or favor, and carry
out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and must be the
granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of a peace
based on justice.
Summary
The conclusions of the early US Army investigations as to the truth
about the wartime German concentration camps have since been
1.The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result
of a German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of
epidemics of typhus and other disease brought about largely by the
effects of Allied aerial attacks.
2.Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and
others into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or
amusement were sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German
authorities punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp
commanders and guards.
3.On the other hand, portrayals of the newly liberated inmates as
saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far from the
truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp detainees
were the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of German
policy and German orders.
4.The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers were used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they
were used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible
fabrication. Orthodox historians and professional "Nazi-hunters" have
quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald
and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to keep silent
regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to evade an
open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz and
the
other camps captured by the Soviets.
Institute For Historical Review
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659
http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com
http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.RealNews247.com
Steve Dufour
2006-01-19 20:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Brady
Apparently, Topaz, you are an idiot!
I'm sure you do not mean that literally. If you did there would be no
cause to blame him.
Steve Dufour
2006-01-23 16:49:43 UTC
Permalink
There is nothing wrong with top posting. :-)
Post by Kevin Brady
Apparently, Topaz, you are an idiot!
Forgive the top-post.
KGB
Post by Topaz
by Theodore J. O'Keefe
Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of
the Holocaust story in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes
US troops discovered when they entered German concentration camps at
the close of World War II.
At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention
camps, horrified US infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying
inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising
stories of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by
showing the GIs crematory ovens, alleged execution gas chambers,
supposed implements of torture, and even shrunken heads and
lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made from skin flayed
from dead inmates.
US government authorities, mindful that many Americans who remembered
the atrocity stories fed them during World War I still doubted the
Allied propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to
"document" what the GIs had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen
and politicians were flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while
the US Army Signal Corps filmed and photographed the scenes for
posterity. Famous journalist Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of
horror, but no longer of disbelief, what he had been told and shown,
and Dachau and
Buchenwald were branded on the hearts and minds of the American
populace as names of infamy unmatched in the sad and bloody history
of this planet.
For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the
diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of
torture and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory
propaganda campaign but of the conviction that, yes, it was true: the
Germans did exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas
chambers.
What the GIs found was used, by way of films that were mandatory
viewing for the vanquished populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the
German people by destroying their national pride and their will to a
united, independent national state, imposing in their place
overwhelming feelings of collective guilt and political impotence.
And when the testimony, and the verdict, of the Nuremberg Tribunal
incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories Americans were
told about
Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by the US Army, the
Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented, one of the most
authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes in the
human record.
A Different Reality
But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the
camps, American authorities were aware that the real story of the
camps was quite different from the one in which they were coaching
military public information officers, government spokesmen,
politicians, journalists, and other mouthpieces.
When American and British forces overran western and central Germany
in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with
discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes.
Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic
pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate
General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team,
Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German
camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim
work at Dachau, he was
questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.
Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What
we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that
is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his
biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist
on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations,
confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."
Typhus, Not Poison Gas
If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau,
Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or
deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as
well.
As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief
cause of death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease,
above all typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until
recently flourished in places where populations were crowded together
in circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had
broken down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in
Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic
delousing, quarantine of the sick and cremation of the dead, the
virtual
collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led
to catastrophe.
Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and
mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D.,
Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the
Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in
Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in
concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus
infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes
Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an
astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that,
homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them ...Germany was in
chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing
armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the
spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were
seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor,
housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere
lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring
such as few countries and few times have experienced.
Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a
psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with
British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who
volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn
oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who
died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II
weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of
diseases."
Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited
stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue
after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously
maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed
each day.
Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to
the contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy
of extermination through starvation in the German camps.
No 'Human Skin' Lampshades
What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for
their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other
artifacts? What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks,"
whipping posts, gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are
reported to have abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and
even more grotesque ones proffered by Soviet prosecutors, found their
way into the record at Nuremberg.
The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch,
dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to
have furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned
hides of luckless inmates.
But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the US zone of occupied
Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors in
Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch]
selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins
or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." In an
interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material
for the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that it was
goat flesh. But
at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for
her to have gotten a fair trial." Ilse Koch hanged herself in a German
jail in 1967.
It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre
claims as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German
cruelty, however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a
legal investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose
statements on the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been
challenged by proponents of the Jewish Holocaust story. Dr. Morgen
informed the court that he had been given full authority by Heinrich
Himmler,
commander of Hitler's SS and the dread Gestapo, to enter any German
concentration camp and investigate instances of cruelty and corruption
on the part of camp personnel. As he explained in sworn testimony at
Nuremberg, Dr. Morgen investigated 800 such cases, resulting in more
than 200 convictions. Punishments included the death penalty for the
worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt, commandant of Lublin
(Majdanek), and Karl Koch (Ilse's husband), commandant of Buchenwald.
While German camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical
punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and
it was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of
the prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual
beating. After all, throughout most of the war the camps were
important centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale
of the prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is
evidenced in a January 1943 order issued by SS General Richard Glücks,
chief of the office that supervised the
concentration camps. It held the camp commanders "personally
responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the physical
strength of the detainees." Camp Survivors: Merely Victims?
US Army investigators, working at Buchenwald and other camps, quickly
ascertained what was common knowledge among veteran inmates: that the
worst offenders, the cruelest denizens of the camps, were not the
guards but the prisoners themselves. Common criminals of the same
stripe as those who populate US prisons today committed many
villainies, particularly when they held positions of authority, and
fanatical Communists, highly organized to combat their many
political enemies among the inmates, eliminated their foes with
Stalinist ruthlessness. Two US Army investigators at Buchenwald, Egon
W. Fleck and Edward A. Tenenbaum, carefully investigated circumstances
in the camp before its liberation. In a detailed report submitted to
their superiors, they revealed, in the words of Alfred Toombs, their
commander, who wrote a preface to the report, "how the prisoners
themselves organized a deadly terror within the Nazi terror."
Fleck and Tenenbaum described the power exercised by criminals and
The trusties, who in time became almost exclusively Communist
Germans, had the power of life and death over all other inmates. They
could sentence a man or a group to almost certain death ... The
Communist trusties were directly responsible for a large part of the
brutalities at Buchenwald.
Colonel Donald B. Robinson, chief historian of the American military
government in Germany, summarized the Fleck-Tenenbaum report in an
article published in an American magazine shortly after the war.
Colonel Robinson wrote succinctly of the American investigators'
findings: "It appeared that the prisoners who agreed with the
Communists ate; those who didn't starved to death."
Additional corroboration of inmate brutality has been provided by
Ellis E. Spackman, who, as Chief of Counter-Intelligence Arrests and
Detentions for the US Seventh Army, was involved in the liberation of
Dachau. Spackman, later a professor of history at San Bernardino
Valley College in California, wrote in 1966 that at Dachau "the
prisoners were the actual instruments that inflicted the barbarities
on their fellow prisoners."
'Gas Chambers'
In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel
Edward J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at
Struthof-Natzweiler in Alsace. They submitted their findings to their
superiors at the headquarters of the US 6th Army Group, which
subsequently forwarded their report to the US War Crimes Division.
While, significantly, the full text of their report has never been
published, it has been revealed, by a historian supportive of
Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to
characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a
"so-called lethal gas chamber," and to claim it was "allegedly used as
a lethal gas chamber." (Emphasis added)
Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its
effective suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the
confusion, and the blaring publicity that accompanied official reports
of alleged gas chambers at Dachau. At first, a US Army photo depicting
a GI gazing at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the
German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!," was
identified as showing the murder weapon.
Later, however, it was evidently decided that the apparatus in
question was merely a standard delousing chamber for clothing, and
another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as a shower
room, was exhibited to American congressmen and journalists as the
site where thousands breathed their last. While there exist numerous
reports in the press as to the operation of this second "gas chamber,"
no official report by trained Army investigators has yet surfaced to
reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads: Were they
"dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each theory
has appreciable support in journalistic and
historiographical literature.)
As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, and the other camps
liberated by the Allies in western Germany. There was no end of
propaganda about "gas chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far
not a single detailed description of the murder weapon and its
function, not a single report of the kind that is mandatory for the
successful prosecution of any assault or murder case in America at
that time and today, has come to light.
Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly
decreed that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany
after all. (We are now told that "gassing" and "extermination" camps
were located exclusively in what is now Poland, in areas captured by
the Soviet Red Army and made off-limits to western investigators.)
Dr. Martin Broszat of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary
History, which is funded by the German government, stated
categorically in a 1960 letter to the German weekly Die Zeit: "Neither
in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other
prisoners gassed." Professional "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal stated
in 1975 and again in 1993 that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil."
Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and
grieving world as a weapon that claimed hundreds of thousands of
lives, is now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the
modern Dachau "memorial site" in these words: "This gas chamber,
camouflaged as a shower room, was not used."
The Propaganda Intensifies
More than 50 years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald
and other German camps, and trained American investigators established
the facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in
Washington, the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media
in New York continue to churn out millions of words and images
annually on the horrors of the camps and the infamy of the Holocaust.
Despite the fact that, with the exception of the defeated Confederacy,
no enemy of America has ever so suffered so complete and devastating
defeat as did Germany in 1945, the mass media and the politicians and
bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his troops, and his concentration
camps continue to exist in an eternal present, and our opinion makers
continue to distort, through ignorance or malice, the facts about the
camps.
Time for the Truth
It is time that the government and the professional historians reveal
the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald and the other camps. It is time
they let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they
didn't die. It is time that the claims of mass murder by gassing are
clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other claims of
murder. It is time that the free ride certain groups have enjoyed as
the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just as it
is time to end the scapegoating of other groups, including Germans,
eastern Europeans, the
Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and
Britain, either for their alleged role in the Holocaust or their
supposed failure to stop it.
Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great Republic have
the facts about the camps, facts they have a right to know, a right
that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their will
in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers,
Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right
and an overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents that
are deemed by those in positions of power to be significant in
determining America's foreign and educational policy, as well as its
selection of past events to be memorialized in our
civic life.
Today the alleged facts of the Holocaust are at issue all over the
civilized world. The truth will be decided only by recourse to the
facts, in the public forum: not by concealing the facts, denying the
truth, stonewalling reality. The truth will out, and it is time the
government of this country, and governments and international bodies
throughout the world, make public the evidence of what actually
transpired in the German concentration camps in the years 1933-1945,
so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or favor, and carry
out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and must be the
granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of a peace
based on justice.
Summary
The conclusions of the early US Army investigations as to the truth
about the wartime German concentration camps have since been
1.The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result
of a German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of
epidemics of typhus and other disease brought about largely by the
effects of Allied aerial attacks.
2.Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and
others into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or
amusement were sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German
authorities punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp
commanders and guards.
3.On the other hand, portrayals of the newly liberated inmates as
saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far from the
truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp detainees
were the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of German
policy and German orders.
4.The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers were used either for
bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they
were used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible
fabrication. Orthodox historians and professional "Nazi-hunters" have
quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald
and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to keep silent
regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to evade an
open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz and
the
other camps captured by the Soviets.
Institute For Historical Review
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659
http://www.nationalvanguard.org http://www.natvan.com
http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.RealNews247.com
Big Questions
2006-01-24 04:18:38 UTC
Permalink
I don't think so. One of the top critics of Scientology told me that
if he found out about any plans for violence against Scientologists he
would report it to the police.
Steve Dufour
2006-01-24 13:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Big Questions
I don't think so. One of the top critics of Scientology told me that
if he found out about any plans for violence against Scientologists he
would report it to the police.
Who was that?
Big Questions
2006-01-24 22:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Big Questions
I don't think so. One of the top critics of Scientology told me that
if he found out about any plans for violence against Scientologists he
would report it to the police.
Who was that?
I don't want to get him in trouble.
Steve Dufour
2006-01-27 21:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Big Questions
Post by Steve Dufour
Post by Big Questions
I don't think so. One of the top critics of Scientology told me that
if he found out about any plans for violence against Scientologists he
would report it to the police.
Who was that?
I don't want to get him in trouble.
Maybe you already have.

K***@msn.com
2005-12-28 05:34:02 UTC
Permalink
I rather doubt that, Babbie.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...